Problem with Bass Drum

[DaveEwer]

I'm mixing on a set of Audix PH25 powered studio monitors. I mixed my song (pop/rock, guitars, bass, drums, vocal) until it sounded fine (or so I thought). Then I brought it up in Har-Bal and tweaked it. A .jpg of my result is here:
http://www.davidewer.com/sample.jpg
The reference track is included in that screenshot.

The problem is that the song sounds basically fine when I listen through my home stereo, except that the bass drum, though not boomy, has a punch that feels like a smack on the top of my head with a hammer. While it plays great on my monitors, it's just too much for my Radio Shack Minimus 7's.

I compared my track to the reference track on my home stereo, and turned the bass up on the stereo until the reference track just began to break up in the bass, then backed it off. At this setting, the speakers break up at each bass drum hit.

If I tweak the bass area to reduce the punch, it adversely affects the bass guitar.

Is there anything you can see from my graphic that tells you what's wrong?

Thanks in advance,
-Dave Ewer

[har-bal]

I'm mixing on a set of Audix PH25 powered studio monitors. I mixed my song (pop/rock, guitars, bass, drums, vocal) until it sounded fine (or so I thought). Then I brought it up in Har-Bal and tweaked it. A .jpg of my result is here:
http://www.davidewer.com/sample.jpg
The reference track is included in that screenshot.

The problem is that the song sounds basically fine when I listen through my home stereo, except that the bass drum, though not boomy, has a punch that feels like a smack on the top of my head with a hammer. While it plays great on my monitors, it's just too much for my Radio Shack Minimus 7's.

I compared my track to the reference track on my home stereo, and turned the bass up on the stereo until the reference track just began to break up in the bass, then backed it off. At this setting, the speakers break up at each bass drum hit.

If I tweak the bass area to reduce the punch, it adversely affects the bass guitar.

Is there anything you can see from my graphic that tells you what's wrong?

Thanks in advance,
-Dave Ewer

Dave

This is where the game of harmonics becomes important. It sounds as though the bass drum and bass guitar are fighting for the same space.
This problem should really be fixed in the mix. You should low shelf the bass guitar at about 65hz and leave the bass drum intact. This will correct your problem.

If you want to see the harmonics of a particular frequency you can use thie harmonic calculator located here:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/harmonicscalc.html

Earle

[DaveEwer]

To clarify, do you mean to mix the bass guitar so that there is a minimum of information below 65 Hz? (Or do you mean the reverse?)
-Dave Ewer

[har-bal]

To clarify, do you mean to mix the bass guitar so that there is a minimum of information below 65 Hz? (Or do you mean the reverse?)
-Dave Ewer

Dave

Here is what I mean.

This should be done using the equalizer for each track during mixing

For the bass guitar start by rolling all the bottom off (from 100Hz and lower) then use the "low-mid" E.Q. to find the correct bass sound you want. Then slowly dial back the low frequencies to taste. Most of the "punch" comes from the "low-mid" range.

For the kick drum boost 80 to 100Hz for "bass", cut around 200 to 600Hz to avoid conflict with other instruments and eliminate "tubbyness"

This process wiill prevent these instruments from overlapping.

Earle

[har-bal]

To clarify, do you mean to mix the bass guitar so that there is a minimum of information below 65 Hz? (Or do you mean the reverse?)
-Dave Ewer

Dave

Here is what I mean.

This should be done using the equalizer for each trick during mixing

For the bass guitar start by rolling all the bottom off (from 100Hz and lower) then use the "low-mid" E.Q. to find the correct bass sound you want. Then slowly dial back the low frequencies to taste. Most of the "punch" comes from the "low-mid" range.

For the kick drum boost 80 to 100Hz for "bass", cut around 200 to 600Hz to avoid conflict with other instruments and eliminate "tubbyness"

This process wiill prevent these instruments from overlapping.

Earle

Dave

Check your email. I just sent you a zip file with some great mixing techniques from Mark Dance.

Earle

[DaveEwer]

Thank you very much for your help, Earle.
-Dave

[SAB]

Earle,

Can you post mixing techniques from Dave Dance for others on you web site? I don't own your software but I follow any new developments and posts that are listed here. I'm waiting for the plugin version to be released.

Thank you.

[har-bal]

Earle,

Can you post mixing techniques from Dave Dance for others on you web site? I don't own your software but I follow any new developments and posts that are listed here. I'm waiting for the plugin version to be released.

Thank you.

No problem
You can download it from here:
http://www.hdqtrz.com/Files/RecInfo.zip

Cheers

Earle

[SAB]

You guy's are amazing. Thank you.

[DaveEwer]

SAB, honestly, I wouldn't wait for the plugin version - it's really great software. Some songs seem easy to fix with Har-Bal, others require effort as you get used to the combination of your eyes and ears. But I consider it indispensable for ensuring that your mix will work on anything.
-Dave Ewer

[SAB]

Thanks for the heads up.

[zumbido]

Try two 30 second mixes - one without the kick and one without the bass guitar.

Open each one in Har-Bal and you'll see what frequencies are being affected by either the kick or bass WITHIN or WITHOUT your mix.

Unfortunately, you are trying to fix problems that are probably caused by your mixing environment.

$10,000 speakers inside a cement mixer are not going to sound good.

I'd suggest that Har-Bal is exposing the acoustical problems of your room through your mixes.

[HarBal]

...
The problem is that the song sounds basically fine when I listen through my home stereo, except that the bass drum, though not boomy, has a punch that feels like a smack on the top of my head with a hammer. While it plays great on my monitors, it's just too much for my Radio Shack Minimus 7's.
...
-Dave Ewer

Dave,

Your Radio Shack Minimus 7's wouldn't happen to be bass reflex (vented) enclosures would they?

The reason I ask is that the bass reflex design has two main resonances:one with the driver and the vent acting in phase (the higher frequency one) and the other when they are out of phase. The Out of phase resonance magnifies the woofer cone displacement. This commonly leads to audible cone break up with music that has a lot of energy around the anti-phase resonance. In the days of turntables rumble could result in this problem showing up too. Depending upon the size of your speakers that may be anywhere between 20 and 80Hz.

Going by the screen shot you gave, I suggest you shelve bellow 40Hz. There seems to be quite a lot of content at around 30Hz which is probably causing problems with you Hi-Fi speakers. Bone rattling bass is all very well, but if your speakers are not capable of reproducing it, all it does is lower your playable headroom.

Cheers,


Paavo.

[DaveEwer]

Paavo, I notice that there's a description of the Minimus 7 speakers on this Ebay page.

It does seem like I should have done more in the mixing stage. When I recorded the drum set, the bass drum, which had the front head on, was a very boomy and resonant presence, so I boosted 50-60Hz a bit, and pulled down around 125Hz, which seemed to take away the boom and make it a bit drier.

What do you suggest if you consistently want to have a nice relaxed round bass that you can "feel" and "hear" on good speakers, yet doesn't affect headroom, etc. on smaller or cheaper speakers? Is it just a matter of not overdoing it? I ask this because the speakers I mix on seem to be able to take anything and make it sound pretty nice, which almost turns out to be a disadvantage!

-Dave

[Jay]

...so I boosted 50-60Hz a bit, and pulled down around 125Hz, which seemed to take away the boom and make it a bit drier.

What do you suggest if you consistently want to have a nice relaxed round bass that you can "feel" and "hear" on good speakers, yet doesn't affect headroom, etc. on smaller or cheaper speakers?

Dave, think subtraction rather than addition. Also, establish frequency "regions" for each instrument (as much as the material allows). And get in the practice of low-shelving. Of course, this always depends on the specifics of the material. You had the right idea to cut 125Hz; you don't necessarily then want to boost 50-60Hz (your screen shot shows a lot of relative energy around 50Hz). You could instead simply boost the kick's gain by 1 or 2 dB (or some fraction of how many dB you cut at the given frequency... or whatever sounds good ). The thing about getting a "nice relaxed round bass" is that "nice relaxed round" are relative terms.

Take a look at how much energy there is at 50Hz in the reference spectrum of your screen shot -- that's probably a good relative amount to achieve the sound I think you're asking about. Also, remember the timbre of your particular instrument will certainly affect what you want to do with the EQ.

Jay