Simulating a car environment

This is an area where you can share your most unusual or creative application(s) using Har-Bal. We receive emails from folks who are using Har-Bal in ways we never would of imagined!
zumbido

pink noise

Post by zumbido »

Thanks Earle!
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Did it work for you?

Post by har-bal »

Zumdido

Just checking to make sure your project was successful.

Earle
Landphil
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Post by Landphil »

This is a fascinating topic!

A note on the ECM8000 measurement mic; it does require phantom power, so those that are thinking of purchasing this mic for the purpose of analyzing environments away from your studio will need a mic preamp that supplies it. Which leads me to a question . . .

Should one be concerned about the way the mic pre "colors" the ECM8000, Or would you think it would have a minimal affect on the outcome?

I just purchased the Sound Devices MM-1 portable preamp to go with the Behringer mic. I figured that these, along with a portable DAT recorder would allow me the flexability to analyze other environments without the need for electricity or other hookups (besides the reference CD).

I have friends who have spent $$$$$ on HI-FI systems and room treatments. Almost anything you play through these systems sounds good! Even some of my crappy mixes. Could I benefit from analyzing these rooms?

Thanks to all who have posted suggestions in this thread! I may actually get a grip on my studio's acoustic problems!

Phil
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Post by HarBal »

Landphil wrote:This is a fascinating topic!

A note on the ECM8000 measurement mic; it does require phantom power, so those that are thinking of purchasing this mic for the purpose of analyzing environments away from your studio will need a mic preamp that supplies it. Which leads me to a question . . .

Should one be concerned about the way the mic pre "colors" the ECM8000, Or would you think it would have a minimal affect on the outcome?

...

I have friends who have spent $$$$$ on HI-FI systems and room treatments. Almost anything you play through these systems sounds good! Even some of my crappy mixes. Could I benefit from analyzing these rooms?

Phil


Hi Phil,

I always find the study of acoustics and how to get good acoustics a fascinating topic. Particularly cos it is as much an art as a science.

You should have no problems with the preamp you've got, at if the specs are to be believed. I would think that most mic preamps with phantom power would have a frequency response as flat or flatter than that of the mic. However, be wary of some preamps that mention things like warmth or tube sound or something similar. Chances are they may have a deliberately non-flat frequency response to obtain a particular sound.

If you have the privilege to hear a room and system that sounds great, then by all means, do some measurements on it. Start with a reverb time measurement and see how it is balanced across the spectrum. A pink noise frequency response test would be interesting too and my guess is that it would not be flat, showing higher output at the low frequency end.

If you do apply treatments to your room take some time to consider where the best place is to put them. A big problem with many listening environments is the fact that damping is concentrate in one plane or one area of a room (ie. carpet on floors). You should try and spread it arround a bit with more damping at the loudspeaker end of the room and less behind you. Generally behind the listener you should have diffusers to spread the reflections around to take the directional meaning out of the sound but keep the ambience.

Good luck! I hope you find the acoustics you are looking for.

Regards,


Paavo.
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Post by Landphil »

Thanks a bunch, Paavo! HarBal has already helped out more than I ever imagined! This should be a fun experiment!


Hey, Earle. . .

You need to get on the ball, man! Only 38 posts since 1969? Thats 1.08 posts a year! You could at least adjust your time schedule to get in 2 FULL posts a year! :roll: There are people here who value your advice! I'll give you some slack since email took a bit longer in the 60's and 70's, but JEEEEZ! Put some effort in it!

:lol:


Phil
Har/Bal

Hmmm!

Post by Har/Bal »

Phil

I was wondering when someone out there was going to notice. Maybe I need to cheat a little and change the date to reflect a more recent time :)

Glad you are having fun with Har-Bal and room acoustics. It happens to be a subject that most folks never address. There's nothing better than knowing your room is tuned thus relieving you of the need to test your mastered cd's on 20 different speakers systems before you hand it to your client.

I really feel that the professional caliber of the contributing members in this forum has really helped a trememdous amount of people and helped them gain a better understanding of the spectral content of music.
Okay I now have a grand total of 1.11 posts a year since 1969 :twisted:

Earle
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Post by SkipB »

Guys you really have stumbled on to something here that really made a difference.I just used a recorded pink noise filter on a song I was mastering and Boy!! it really made all the difference in the world.I do not use a lot of wall and floor treatment in my room only diffusers but the analyzed pink noise really showed me where I was always compensating for.Thanks Guys this is really a helpful thread.Regards Skip 8)
"Who's worried about the marsh when your up to your waist in Alligators"
rhtjr
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DriveRack Studio's optional RTA mic

Post by rhtjr »

Contributors of this most informative forum string:

I purchased a DriveRack Studio and its accompanying mic prior to purchasing Har-Bal (over 7 months ago). It is gear aimed specifically for multiple monitor management and monitor simulation manufactured and designed by both DBX and Sweetwater. My main purpose for purchasing it was the fact that it could aid in "tuning my room" but have found that the simulated monitors offered (genelec, NS10, etc.) have also been quite useful.

My question to the forum is if any or all of you feel that the mic offered by DBX holds its own with the EMC mic suggested?

Information for the abovementioned equipment can be found here though unfortunately I don't immediately see any data or specs on the RTA-M
rhtjr
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Ooops

Post by rhtjr »

The site was cut off from my previous message:

Contributors of this most informative forum string:

http://www.driverack.com/studio.htm
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Re: DriveRack Studio's optional RTA mic

Post by HarBal »

rhtjr wrote:Contributors of this most informative forum string:

I purchased a DriveRack Studio and its accompanying mic prior to purchasing Har-Bal (over 7 months ago)...

My question to the forum is if any or all of you feel that the mic offered by DBX holds its own with the EMC mic suggested?
...


I would assume that it would be perfectly adequate in performance as any mic designed for that purpose would need to be designed to have a flat frequency response (and probably an omni-directional pattern as well). It may well have better performance than the Behringer Mic suggested though that is hard to tell without specs.

One thing you can do though, is compare the construction of you mic with the Behringer one (theres a picture on the product literature on their website). If it doesn't have a long thin body then it may not have great smoothness in response at the top end. I recall this type of construction minimises diffraction problems at high frequencies which generally result in ripples in the frequency response at the top end. In any case, if your looking at third octave spectrums it probably wouldn't make a great deal of difference as the ripple in the frequency response would tend to average out in the measurement.

Regards,


Paavo.
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Post by rhtjr »

Thanks for the response, Paavo...

Yes, the mic is indeed physically designed like typical RTA mics so it is my opinion that you are correct in your assumption that it would at least be as capable as the EMC model.

As soon as I can, I will try the steps outlined in this string and make an attempt to tune my room, using the DriveRack Studio as well.

I'm sure the results will prove beneficial, as has everything else I've tried that's been suggested by either you or Earle.

-Rob
Evhal
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More news ?

Post by Evhal »

dbmasters wrote:I am currently beta testing a software plugin for a company that does precisely that. They have models of different environments, systems and such and it is actually very cool. Not totally stable yet, but coming along nicely. So stay tuned. It will be mentioned at HRC when launched, I won't here becasue, well, this is the site for a different business...


Hi Dan,

Do you have more news on this product and/or the company ?

Kind rgeards,
Eric
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Post by southern9999 »

Why cant you use the pink noise and measurement mic and set your monitors up for the room accoustics.

Wouldnt you have a good set up for your tracks then? Wouldnt you be fairly close to flat for your type of monitors and room accoustics and not have to load info for each project?

Curious
Scot.
Paavo

Post by Paavo »

southern9999 wrote:Why cant you use the pink noise and measurement mic and set your monitors up for the room accoustics.

Wouldnt you have a good set up for your tracks then? Wouldnt you be fairly close to flat for your type of monitors and room accoustics and not have to load info for each project?

Curious
Scot.


Scot,

I'm not sure woh you were directing this question to but I'll answer from what I know in my own experience.

You certainly can apply an electronic EQ fixed based on pink noise measurements from your normal listening position to get a flatter response there, but the big issue is that it will generally only be accurate at the point at where you measure the response from. Most problematic room problems are standing wave related which are spatial phenomena so the effect of the standing wave is dependent on where you are in the room. The other problem I have with electronic fixes to room acoustics is although it sounds better for the position you EQ'd for, it generally sounds worse everywhere else, or at least that is my experience. If you've got bad room resonances it is best to try and address them with room treatments than electronic fixes since room treatments will make an improvement in the whole space and not just the optimum listening position.

The only other thing I'd add is that I think you'll find that most rooms designed for extended listening of music have a reasonable level of ambience in which the reverb times are greater at the low frequency end than at the high frequency end. The net affect of this is that if you put ideal speakers in such a room the pink noise response will show significant reinforcement at the LF end (as it should be in my opinion). The upshot is that if you tune your studio to have a flat pink noise response then you'll probably end up overemphasising the bass end of your masterings relative to the average mastering. You've got to remember that the average listening environment has quite a lot of apholstering in it, bet it a living room with carpet, or a car and as such, those environments will also have reverb times that are accentuated at the LF end. If you want to know how must boost at the LF end you should have I can't give you a definative answer. I don't really know, other than to say that when it is "right" the majority of commercial recordings should sound "right" also. Clearly there'll be a degree of taste but my guess would be something in the order of 4dB extra emphasis below 500Hz. Maybe an acoustic consultant would be the ones to talk to about this one.

Cheers,


Paavo.
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Re: More news ?

Post by dbmasters »

Evhal wrote:Hi Dan,

Do you have more news on this product and/or the company ?

Kind rgeards,
Eric

Yeah, it's out in production now. It's Sound System Modeler from Bobtail Software. http://www.bobtailsoftware.com/
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