RMS level?

[zumbido]

Since I don't have all those slick WaveLab plug-ins...

Is there anything similar to the RMS level that can be ascertained from the 'Average' level that is displayed in Har-Bal?

I loaded Green Day's 'American Idiot' & 'Boulevard of Dreams' into Har-Bal.

This is a LOUD CD!

'American Idiot': Average = 0.49 , Peak = 10.86 (I don't remember seeing a positive value for the Average before)

'Boulevard of Dreams':: Average = -0.89, Peak = 11.16

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[har-bal]

Since I don't have all those slick WaveLab plug-ins...

Is there anything similar to the RMS level that can be ascertained from the 'Average' level that is displayed in Har-Bal?

I loaded Green Day's 'American Idiot' & 'Boulevard of Dreams' into Har-Bal.

This is a LOUD CD!

'American Idiot': Average = 0.49 , Peak = 10.86 (I don't remember seeing a positive value for the Average before)

'Boulevard of Dreams':: Average = -0.89, Peak = 11.16

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Zumbido

How the hech have you been

You don't need all thiose slick plugins because you have T-Racks. As long as you mix down to between -2 or -3 You can feed your tracks into T-Racks using the "opto plus half inch preset.

If you don't have this preset because you have the plugin version of T=Racks, let me know and I will post the file that will configure your T-Racks plugin.

As far as the average and peak in Har-Bal. Read the detailed explanation below of that feature from Paavo.

They are actual dB levels but not in the sense you are used to. Your more acustomed to the level as portrayed by VU meters but in the spectral domain how strong something appears is a function of its bandwidth and its level. For example, if you take a sine wave and pink noise both of the same power, the levels as displayed by a VU meter will be the same for both signals but in the frequency domain the sine wave will have a large peak that is at a much higher level than the spectrum line representing the pink noise. This is because the power of the signal in the frequency domain is the integral sum of the components across the spectrum. That is the area under the curve (when displayed on linear-linear scale) is the same for the sine wave spectrum and the pink noise spectrum.

If you're lost think of it in this way. You have a balloon of fixed volume and it has a particular overall length. Now squeeze the balloon and what happens to the length? It increases because the volume in the balloon is trying to stay constant and your restricting its width. A similar thing happens with signals in the frequency domain but in this case the width is the "spectral width". A sine has a very small spectral width so the peak level in the spectrum is correspondingly much higher than for a wide bandwidth signal like pink noise. For this reason it isn't very useful to think about the absolute values on the spectrum axis too much cos it is only the area under the curve that has an easily identifiable physical significance. By the way, the reference I used for the dB scale was arbitrarily chosen. In the next release it will be dB referred to a full scale sine wave, which you may or may not find more useful.


Cheers

Earle

[zumbido]

Earle,

Thanks for the quick reply!

I have the stand-alone T-RackS.

I mix in PT on a MAC then "Bounce to Disk" (creating a 24-bit/48k '.wav' file). Then I bring this file over to my PC and open in Har-Bal. I then 'sculpt' the wave in Har-Bal. I usually have an 'Average' reading of -15 dB, in Har-Bal, of my mix level. When I apply the EQ in Har-Bal I never adjust the volume. I then bring this 'xxx_eq' file into T-Racks. I have been using the half-inch opto preset. Of course I do not use the equalizer in T-RackS - only the limiter and compressor sections (from the preset). By adjusting the limiter level (in T-RackS) I can get the 'Average' number near -3 dB in Har-Bal, when I bring the file back into Har-Bal.

Now, what do you mean by : "As long as you mix down to between -2 or -3"?

Where, in my chain, do I need to acheive this number? And where would I see this value?

I could link you to some screen shots of some of my files for your review and comment.

[har-bal]

Earle,

Thanks for the quick reply!

I have the stand-alone T-RackS.

I mix in PT on a MAC then "Bounce to Disk" (creating a 24-bit/48k '.wav' file). Then I bring this file over to my PC and open in Har-Bal. I then 'sculpt' the wave in Har-Bal. I usually have an 'Average' reading of -15 dB, in Har-Bal, of my mix level. When I apply the EQ in Har-Bal I never adjust the volume. I then bring this 'xxx_eq' file into T-Racks. I have been using the half-inch opto preset. Of course I do not use the equalizer in T-RackS - only the limiter and compressor sections (from the preset). By adjusting the limiter level (in T-RackS) I can get the 'Average' number near -3 dB in Har-Bal, when I bring the file back into Har-Bal.

Now, what do you mean by : "As long as you mix down to between -2 or -3"?

Where, in my chain, do I need to acheive this number? And where would I see this value?

I could link you to some screen shots of some of my files for your review and comment.

Zumbido

You are doing it correctly.

The number I am referring to is the number you should be at after you mix down in PT before converting it to a two track stereo interleaved file..

In other words it is the number before "0" to insure you are not placing a clipped file into Har-Bal.

If you look at your meter scale in PT -12, -6,-3, 0 . If the file is shipped out of PT and the volume is less than zero you are fine. I believe you may already be doing this but hadn't realized it.

Earle

[samplesize]

Okay, now *I'm* a little confused.

Earle, Is the point you're making that for T-racks Opto + 1/2 inch to work properly, you should be bringing in a file that's peaking at -2 to -3 db? And then probably not really messing with any settings in T-Racks?

So if, for example, I complete my mix in Cubase and export the audio to a stereo track, then Har-balize, then I should bring the level up (in Soundforge, for example) to -2 to -3db?

Also, should dithering be on or off in T-Racks?

Thanks a lot!

Samplesize

[har-bal]

Okay, now *I'm* a little confused.

Earle, Is the point you're making that for T-racks Opto + 1/2 inch to work properly, you should be bringing in a file that's peaking at -2 to -3 db? And then probably not really messing with any settings in T-Racks?

So if, for example, I complete my mix in Cubase and export the audio to a stereo track, then Har-balize, then I should bring the level up (in Soundforge, for example) to -2 to -3db?

Also, should dithering be on or off in T-Racks?

Thanks a lot!

Samplesize

Samplesize

You are correct in your first statement. If you bring in a file to T-Racks at the levels noted above and do not change the settings (Opto + 1/2 inch) your song would be at a commercial volume automatically. I have used this process countless times. Of course you are going to have folks out there that want even more volume and probably turn up the output, but it is not necessary. The settings noted above allows T-Racls to create a master for you that is dynamically sound.

I usually leave the dithering "off".

T-Racks is a remarkable solution for creating a final master and taking it right to the club.

Cheers

Earle

[shep9040]

Earle-

When I follow the process you've discussed here, I'm consistently ending up with files at between -12RMS and -14 RMS. What parameters in T-Racks should I mess with to increase this to about -11 RMS so that my songs are at least closer in loudness to other professionally mastered hard rock songs (which, truth be told, are closer to -10 RMS)? I've been increasing the input drive of the limiter, but does this really hurt the dynamics of the opto+1/2 inch preset? Am I bringing the songs in too soft? Please help!

-Shep Shepard

[har-bal]

Earle-

When I follow the process you've discussed here, I'm consistently ending up with files at between -12RMS and -14 RMS. What parameters in T-Racks should I mess with to increase this to about -11 RMS so that my songs are at least closer in loudness to other professionally mastered hard rock songs (which, truth be told, are closer to -10 RMS)? I've been increasing the input drive of the limiter, but does this really hurt the dynamics of the opto+1/2 inch preset? Am I bringing the songs in too soft? Please help!

-Shep Shepard

Shep

If your songs are between -12 and -14rms you are definately on the right track! You can bring the songs in approximately 2-3dbs louder and you will be okay. The only reason I recommend -2 to -3 before -0- to most folks is to get them in the habit of not clipping their songs to death during the recording phase.

Earle

[konk]

Earle-

When I follow the process you've discussed here, I'm consistently ending up with files at between -12RMS and -14 RMS. What parameters in T-Racks should I mess with to increase this to about -11 RMS so that my songs are at least closer in loudness to other professionally mastered hard rock songs (which, truth be told, are closer to -10 RMS)? I've been increasing the input drive of the limiter, but does this really hurt the dynamics of the opto+1/2 inch preset? Am I bringing the songs in too soft? Please help!

-Shep Shepard

Shep

If your songs are between -12 and -14rms you are definately on the right track! You can bring the songs in approximately 2-3dbs louder and you will be okay. The only reason I recommend -2 to -3 before -0- to most folks is to get them in the habit of not clipping their songs to death during the recording phase.

Earle

I just wanto clarrify I am understanding correctly.

your saying when its mixed down if u want another increase u can try for more than -3? Is the general consensus that the peak u mixdown in will be directly relational to the peak at the end of the Optio/Half Inch process? couldn't u just change the threshhold in T-racks and get the same result from a -3 mixdown?

Currently Im mixing stuff down in -1 and getting around a -12 after T-racks . What else apart from this process can help in increasing RMS and is directly relational? is doubling up sounds in the mix a good trick for increasing rms?

this is a very good thread btw. Very informative

[har-bal]

Earle-

When I follow the process you've discussed here, I'm consistently ending up with files at between -12RMS and -14 RMS. What parameters in T-Racks should I mess with to increase this to about -11 RMS so that my songs are at least closer in loudness to other professionally mastered hard rock songs (which, truth be told, are closer to -10 RMS)? I've been increasing the input drive of the limiter, but does this really hurt the dynamics of the opto+1/2 inch preset? Am I bringing the songs in too soft? Please help!

-Shep Shepard

Shep

If your songs are between -12 and -14rms you are definately on the right track! You can bring the songs in approximately 2-3dbs louder and you will be okay. The only reason I recommend -2 to -3 before -0- to most folks is to get them in the habit of not clipping their songs to death during the recording phase.

Earle

I just wanto clarrify I am understanding correctly.

your saying when its mixed down if u want another increase u can try for more than -3? Is the general consensus that the peak u mixdown in will be directly relational to the peak at the end of the Optio/Half Inch process? couldn't u just change the threshhold in T-racks and get the same result from a -3 mixdown?

Currently Im mixing stuff down in -1 and getting around a -12 after T-racks . What else apart from this process can help in increasing RMS and is directly relational? is doubling up sounds in the mix a good trick for increasing rms?

this is a very good thread btw. Very informative

Hello Konk

If your files are ending up between -12 and -14 rms you can place the track back in Har-Bal or any limiter and add the loudness you need. For example

If the the track is -12 rms place it in a limiter and add 2dBs to get to -10

Earle