High end outboard eq?

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Thom
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:16 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

High end outboard eq?

Post by Thom »

I've just pre-mastered some live tracks using HarBal and LiquidMix. The process went like this...

1.Edit compilation of tracks out of three live performances in Cubase.

2.Put each track into Harbal and Eq using something like the technique described elsewhere by uncajesse (thanks for that!). Aim to acheive a clear balanced sound.

3.Back to Cubase and process each track through LiquidMix using various vintage Compression and EQ to develop the track's 'feel', 'texture' and 'punch'. Also limit (very mild) and dither for 16 bit rendering.

The question I ask is is there anything to gain through applying a high end outboard eq if you are already processing through Harbal? What else can the outboard eq add after the Harbaling? Does the shaping of the tone control in the outboard (the outboard's eq 'shape' when you add or cut using the eq's controls) add something, or is it adding specific phase distortions or something more esoteric?

Should I be able to acheive the same 'sound' through Harbal alone, or is there more to it than that?

Just curious. I'm not convinced it was neccessary to use the extra eq step, but I'm wondering if others do or don't do this?

T
HarBal
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Post by HarBal »

As far as I'm concerned, outboard EQ's are used to add colouration that is deemed pleasant of one nature or another. People do it cos they "like the sound of a particular EQ" which, in my view, translates to liking the colouration a particular device adds (non-linearity, noise etc). This is much the same as people using analog tape to give warmth. It is the colouration that they like.

I personally wouldn't do it as I want any processing to be as neutral as possible. If you feel it is not necessary then don't do it. Much of the debate about analog sounding superior to digital falls into the trap of confusing the pleasantness of a particular colouration with accuracy. In the turntable versus CD debate I can readily admit to the turntable sounding warmer but that is not due to greater fidelity. It is due to the pressence of rumble and the peakiness of the cartridge frequency response at the top end. No different to people liking the sound of 1 inch condesers more than 1/2 inch because the frequency response of the 1 inch is less accurate (generally peaky around 15kHz) than the 1/2 inch and they like that colouration.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

Cheers,


Paavo.
shanecgriffo
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Location: surfcoast australia

Post by shanecgriffo »

i have on a few occasions after har baling, mastered through some of the eq and preamp settings on nebula (dynamic sampling type) effects plugin.
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/2612.html
then when you load the wav file back into harbal you can see that it just looks a bit beefier
i quite like some of the coloring of ,say, an ssl desk preamp or some of the other presets.
there is a free version and is worth checking out ,also includes some very nice reverbs!
We live in great times for the home recordist (even if most the rest of the world has gone to crap..haha) i use all these tools lots!
i wonder the difference between rendering through harbal first then through 'coloring devices' as opposed to using harbal very last in the chain.. I might have to test that if i get time.
HarBal
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Post by HarBal »

Be wary of making A/B Har-bal analyses to gauge the effect of outboard equipment. It is only valid if the analysed files are of the same length in time and time aligned. If they are not then you'll see differences in otherwise identical tracks. This is no error but simply the nature of averaged periodogram spectrum analysis.

I've had people previously come to the wrong conclusions through this oversight. If you want to use Har-Bal to reality check this then you must ensure that the tracks you are comparing are time aligned.

Regards,


Paavo.
Thom
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Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:16 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Post by Thom »

Interesting replies.
I cant say I hear much 'colouration' from putting material through any of the high end device emulations I have used, but what I do find useful is that they all have their own way of 'shaping' the sound (some more than others). In a sense they offer far less choice of control than the very fine precision availablr in HarBal, but they do give interesting 'suggestions' by the shape that is inherent in their eq manipulation, and these 'suggestions' add some kind of character.
This led me to thinking about how to determine what the eq shape is of a particular device say when you 'turn up the low shelf gain'. Would it be possible to use a white noise sample and study the before and after graph in HarBal, or would this be prone to the time aligning errors?
T
HarBal
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Post by HarBal »

Hello Thom,

Maybe colouration was not the best word as it generally implies something obviously deleterious and that wasn't my intention. The point I was trying to make applies only to those people who insist that they can ONLY obtain the sound they want using outboard gear. I take the stance that I believe their claim but for the claim to be true then the only "scientifically" justifiable explanation is that he outboard device is ADDING something something that Har-Bal is not (or perhaps visa versa).

On the whole though, I believe that in most cases where people assert this observation it is because, as you say, they are realising a different frequency response than they are in Har-Bal. Such a comparison can clearly only be valid if the frequency response in both cases is the same. Your approach to obtaining that valid comparison should work fine and to answer your specific question, with white or pink noise the time alignment issue is a non-issue provided your track is long enough (a 2 minute pink noise track should be more than enough). The reason why time alignment is a big issue with music and not with noise is because music is statistically non-stationary (meaning its statistical porperties change with time) whereas pink & white noise signals aren't.

In summary, your comparison approach should work fine so apply a pink noise source to your outboard EQ and record the result. Then open the un-EQ'd noise file as the track to filter and the EQ'd noise file as the reference and then use the Har-bal tools to create the same magnitude frequency response. Then save the filter and use to on a piece of music. I'd be very interested to hear your views on what differences you can hear in the two different renditions of the same track. My guess is that you will be struggling to hear the difference.

Regards,


Paavo.
Hitmaker
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Post by Hitmaker »

Hi ,

I'm with Paavo re: the 'colour' of outboard eqs ... or indeed the plethora of recent plugs claiming to be emulations of devices with famous 'colour' ....
In the analogue word , eq is achieved through controlled phase shifts , and I'd suspect therein comes the 'colour' ... and the adjustments were somewhat gross ... particularly compared to FFT equing ...
Digital equing has usually minimal , or zero phase alteration ....

If by 'beefier' , shanecgriffo was refering to the spectrum having more peak/valley range ... that would be supportive evidence .... in that the spectral effect of comb-filtering is to retain the general shape ( the peaks are in the same places ) .. but amplify their value ....

Cheers ,

Evan .
" I hate compression with a vengeance . I avoid it . I'm a great believer in the dynamic range being preserved " Alan Parsons
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