Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ VST)

Having problems using the greatest Visual Mastering software of the century? Use this area of the Forum to post your technical questions to Earle and Paavo regarding Har-Bal or ask questions regarding how to work on a certain area of the software? Post away!
Post Reply
EugeneB
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:27 pm

Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ VST)

Post by EugeneB »

Happy new year.

My question is, can I use Har-Bal as an integrated VST inside my DAW (FL Studio)? It's a bit of a pain to run the standalone and import/export. I just need to capture the graph adjustments that it does on every track, with my usual reference (I only use one reference for everything).

I'm having a bit of trouble converting Har-Bal's graph to what exactly I need to do with an EQ VST (like Parametric EQ) inside FL Studio. I wish there was a preset for Parametric EQ, or ideally Har-Bal as a VST on my master.
EugeneB
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:27 pm

Re: Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ

Post by EugeneB »

In other words, here's a built-in EQ VST tool in FL Studio (there are many others)...

How can I perform the mapping, precisely according the output of Har-Bal, to achieve its EQing results? Is there some kind of data table that can tell me exact values of the curve? My goal is not to go through the standalone app and have everything centralized on my Mastering chain. All the VSTs accept preset data files.

Image
HarBal
Site Admin
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ

Post by HarBal »

Simple answer is you can't. The best you can do is to write down the edit parameters you see in the Har-Bal status line when creating the filter and use those as parameters for your plugin. If you don't follow then go to har-bal select the gain tool click and drag as if you are doing an edit and then watch the status line. What do you see?

cheers,


Paavo.
EugeneB
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:27 pm

Re: Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ

Post by EugeneB »

This is very upsetting to hear.

As the programmer, you have access to the exact array of values (deltas) that you're applying when the user clicks "Match EQ". Is it so difficult to expose or at least export this array to a text file? I just need a report of the deltas that the program is applying. You have that curve.
HarBal
Site Admin
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ

Post by HarBal »

If I export all that is used to make up a Har-Bal frequency response I think you and everyone else will find it far from easy to work with. You seem to be under the misapprehension that it is just a bunch of parametric EQ edits. It isn't. The frequency responses in Har-Bal are composed of edit points with a 1/12th octave resolution whose centre frequencies are chosen to coincide with the notes on the western music scale. It isn't a mere handful of points.

Depending upon sampling frequency of the source material you are talking a minimum of 120 points! You really think you are going to be hand editing 120 edit points in your VST plug. I think not!

Exporting the frequency response in that form has essentially no value to the majority of users. It would only be of use to someone who takes that data and further processes it through programming into a form suitable for whatever they want it for.

cheers,


Paavo.
HarBal
Site Admin
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ

Post by HarBal »

Following on from my skepticism on your suggestion, looking at the documentation for fruity loops parametric EQ 2 I see it is a 7 band parametric EQ. As such, it can only approximate any frequency responses you can realize with Har-Bal, so again, a simple export of the data pertaining to the frequency response realised in Har-Bal is useless to that plug in.

What is needed is an optimiser that models the frequency response of a 7 band parametric EQ and fits it to the frequency response realised by Har-Bal. It isn't a simple problem to solve and you need to know the exact mathematical form of the parametric EQ response of the device you are trying to match to. Again, it won't realise the same frequency response because it is incapable of doing so and will only be an approximate fit. In addition to that, the phase response of the parametric realisation will be vastly different (and worse) than the Har-Bal version because it adds a seperate phase delay contribution from every EQ stage used whereas in Har-Bal's case the phase response is always either linear or minimum (depending on the configuration of Har-Bal). In short, whatever is matched using FL parametric EQ 2 will not sound the same as what you hear through Har-Bal.

I could implement such an algorithm but for it to be of an use you need to know the exact mathematical form of the target devices parameteric EQ functions. I wouldn't have a clue what the form is in this case. I could choose a form but if it isn't exactly the same then the result will be completely stuffed. That and the fact that it is an inferior quality result doesn't give me much incentive to even bother. Add to that the addition of segmented filters in Har-Bal and it becomes even less attractive.

At best I can export the plain filter frequency response as .csv and then everyone who wants to do what you've asked will need to do there own leg work to find out the form of response and build and fit a model to the frequency response using something like R scripting.

cheers,


Paavo.
EugeneB
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:27 pm

Re: Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ

Post by EugeneB »

Okay; in that case, what's needed is a superimposed graph of before/after so I can at least clearly see the approximate difference. I'm fine with approximations, but now it's hard to even get those.

I either see the Before, the After, but not both in stable stationary format (perhaps some kind of averaging for the track). There needs to be some kind of simple Compare tool that gives a rough idea of adjustments that have to be made, in a very easy-to-understand way, without the track playing and changing, both before/after on the same screen. If EQ translation is very hard, maybe there are much easier but still useful approximation techniques, clearly visible to the user, that push in the direction of Har-Bal's matching.
HarBal
Site Admin
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Use HarBal's EQ Matching as VST (or export values to EQ

Post by HarBal »

Well, I don't see how I can help there. Seems like you need a feature in your Target EQ to load a reference curve.
Post Reply