Need some more help on T-Racks limiter vs Match loudness

[RevBill]

I'm new to both Har-Bal and to T-Racks, and I'm a bit confused about how to use the T-Racks limiter in conjunction with the Har-Bal "match loudness" feature.

I think understand the part about using Har-Bal to find the amount of correction needed (in Db). But the instructions in the getting started quickly area on this board speak of setting a limiters "outceiling" and "threshold". How do I achieve this using the T-Racks limiter? (or is it possible? - I am using the opto+1/2 inch preset)

For example, if "match loudness" indicated a gain reduction of -2 db, does this mean I set the T-Racks limiter to show -2db on the "current" display in the T-Racks limiter section and -.1 db on the digital readout in the T-Racks output section? Not sure how to translate the terms "outceiling" and "threshold" to T-Racks since there are no knobs/readouts labeled with these terms.

I'm using the PC standalone version of T-racks, not sure if that makes any difference. Any advice would be appreciated.

-Bill

[har-bal]

I'm new to both Har-Bal and to T-Racks, and I'm a bit confused about how to use the T-Racks limiter in conjunction with the Har-Bal "match loudness" feature.

I think understand the part about using Har-Bal to find the amount of correction needed (in Db). But the instructions in the getting started quickly area on this board speak of setting a limiters "outceiling" and "threshold". How do I achieve this using the T-Racks limiter? (or is it possible? - I am using the opto+1/2 inch preset)

For example, if "match loudness" indicated a gain reduction of -2 db, does this mean I set the T-Racks limiter to show -2db on the "current" display in the T-Racks limiter section and -.1 db on the digital readout in the T-Racks output section? Not sure how to translate the terms "outceiling" and "threshold" to T-Racks since there are no knobs/readouts labeled with these terms.

I'm using the PC standalone version of T-racks, not sure if that makes any difference. Any advice would be appreciated.

-Bill

Bill

If your tracks are mixed down to either -2 or -3 prior to loading them into Har-Bal, there would be no reason to use the match loudness feature. You would then just open T-Racks and use the opto + half inch preset.
This would automatically give you an outceiling of -0.1 and an RMS level between -14 and -11 which is suitable for commercial levels based on genre with a nice peak to average ratio.

The match loudness feature is basically used for those tracks that are way to low in volume going in..
You would then just use a limiter setting the following two options

Threshold = the negative value of the increase in Har-Bal (If the increase is +2db you input -2db in your limiter)
Outceiling = -0.1

Do me a favor if you can. Run statistics or a global analysis on your track prior to loading it into Har-Bal and let me know the RMS level.

Thanks

Earle

[RevBill]

Earle,

I don't know what you are referring to when you suggest I run statistics or a global analysis on my tracks. Are these tools available in Har Bal or T-Racks? My tracks are created using Roland VS2480 but I don't think this DAW has any anaylsis tools such as you mention.

Maybe I misunderstood the whole benefit of "match loudness". I thought this tool was designed to alllow someone to pick a reference track and then match the loudness of that track to all other cuts on a CD. So that's what I was hoping to do, not because my tracks are not loud enough but because there are some slight variations and I thought that might be a way to do it.

The snag I perceived is that the only limiter I own is in T-Racks, so when the instructions said to "set" the "outceiling" and the "threshold" of the limiter to a specific value, I don't know which controls on T-Racks affect those parameters. Sounds like from what you are saying that the T-Racks opto/half inch preset automatically sets the ceiling at -.1, so I wouldn't need to worry about that parameter. Still don't know how to relate a specific T-Racks adjustment to match the settings in Harm Bal. Am I making any sense or confusing this to a greater extent?

Sorry, kind of a newbie to audio and this kind of thing.

-Bill

[har-bal]

Earle,

I don't know what you are referring to when you suggest I run statistics or a global analysis on my tracks. Are these tools available in Har Bal or T-Racks? My tracks are created using Roland VS2480 but I don't think this DAW has any anaylsis tools such as you mention.

Maybe I misunderstood the whole benefit of "match loudness". I thought this tool was designed to alllow someone to pick a reference track and then match the loudness of that track to all other cuts on a CD. So that's what I was hoping to do, not because my tracks are not loud enough but because there are some slight variations and I thought that might be a way to do it.

The snag I perceived is that the only limiter I own is in T-Racks, so when the instructions said to "set" the "outceiling" and the "threshold" of the limiter to a specific value, I don't know which controls on T-Racks affect those parameters. Sounds like from what you are saying that the T-Racks opto/half inch preset automatically sets the ceiling at -.1, so I wouldn't need to worry about that parameter. Still don't know how to relate a specific T-Racks adjustment to match the settings in Harm Bal. Am I making any sense or confusing this to a greater extent?

Sorry, kind of a newbie to audio and this kind of thing.

-Bill

Bill

You are correct in your assumption regarding the match loudness feature.
We had a few folks trying to match the loudness of a cd that was already squished. If you want to use the loudness feature find a cd in your genre that is dated prior to..... hmmm 1995. This will give you a good balance for all of your tracks to use as a guide.

Let me give you an example of what I do using a reference for loudness matching.

Any time I have an album to master I eq in Har-Bal and each track is matched to a song on an album by Angela Winbush from 1994 for loudness. The level is decent and it insures for me that none of the songs will be squished going into the limiter to prevent clipping.

Using this method I can actually apply the eq settings and the increase in volume and not have to pull the fader back to "0" in Har-Bal.

On the other hand I have seen folks find the loudest cd they can find and attempt to use the match loudness feature. That is what we discourage them from. Which is why we tell them to take those "increased gain" settings and input them into a limiter.

Here is your ideal situation.

1. Open and load your track (use a reference if you like) to sculpt the spectrum
2. After you have your track sounding good close the reference and open your reference file you use specifically for loudness matching.
3. Click on the equalizer/match loudness button. The fader will eith go up or down to match the loudness of the reference file.
4. Click on the record button and save the new file.
5. Open T-Racks and load your file using the opto+half-inch preset
6. Process the file (as 24bit)
7. Dither back down to 16bit and you are done.

I am sure in your Roland there is a feature that allows you to check the RMS level on your track.
You can check with the folks at the following link.

http://www.vsplanet.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi

If there are still things you may not understand, send me your phone number along with your customer# and I will call you.

Cheers

Earle

BTW: You are not a newbie....You are using Har-Bal. You are ahead of the game!

[RevBill]

Thanks Earle.. I'll play around with it a bit more and check with the folks on VS Planet. I'm probably going to be a bit unclear about a few things till I get a bit more experience with the program. If I can't figure it out eventually, I may take you up on your offer and drop you my telephone. In the meantime, thanks for the advice and help so far!

-Bill