Hey mates!
Lets assume I have drum kits, bass, strings and guitar playing together (it's hip-hop song). When I put it into har-bal I get average: -15 db and peak: -10 db. Well, it doesn't seem to have big holes or peaks. By the way I tried to correct a little. But even after the correction there are no changes in average and peak section. Yes, I saw in the first page that -17 and -7 is a poorly EQ'd track. I've also done the mixdown of only drums and bass line, which were exported at maximum possible level. The average was: -19 db and peak: -15db. Hmm, could You comment my situation? So, how to achieve average: -5db and peak: 4 db for instance? What is the trick?:) As I understand only then, after mastering, I will get a loud, commercial sounding song.
Thank You!
Sincerely,
Bracelet Z
Average & Peaks ! ! !
Bracelet Z,
I'm assuming the peak and average figures you are referring to are the overall loudness values that HarBal reports on screen, correct? Is the track you are referring to a mixed down master or is it a track of a single instrument? I think from the context you gave it sounds like the mixdown.
If so, all you have to do is put it through a limiter using a gain figure equivalent to the difference between where the average level is now and where you want it to be. By the way, I'd argue against aiming for an average level of -5dB. That would be very squashed and lifeless. Loud for sure, but lifeless and hard to listen to. I wouldn't recommend going beyond -9dB, so in your case that corresponds to a limiter gain of 10dB.
Another thing to note, if your drum track is a recording of real drums using mics you may have some errant peaks that are hold the average level down a bit. In such a case it is probably worthwhile applying just enough limiting to the drum track to get rid of errant peaks prior to mix down. What just enough is is hard to say, as it will depend on the recording, but you can be sure that it is less than the limiting you'd apply during mastering.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Paavo.
I'm assuming the peak and average figures you are referring to are the overall loudness values that HarBal reports on screen, correct? Is the track you are referring to a mixed down master or is it a track of a single instrument? I think from the context you gave it sounds like the mixdown.
If so, all you have to do is put it through a limiter using a gain figure equivalent to the difference between where the average level is now and where you want it to be. By the way, I'd argue against aiming for an average level of -5dB. That would be very squashed and lifeless. Loud for sure, but lifeless and hard to listen to. I wouldn't recommend going beyond -9dB, so in your case that corresponds to a limiter gain of 10dB.
Another thing to note, if your drum track is a recording of real drums using mics you may have some errant peaks that are hold the average level down a bit. In such a case it is probably worthwhile applying just enough limiting to the drum track to get rid of errant peaks prior to mix down. What just enough is is hard to say, as it will depend on the recording, but you can be sure that it is less than the limiting you'd apply during mastering.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Paavo.
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Bracelet Z
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:12 pm
- Location: LT
Thank You!
Yes, it was the mixdown before mastering and I wrote the numbers, which indicate average and peak levels in Har-Bal. For drums I used electronic hip-hop kit. I've used compressor on the kick and then the limiter jointly with the bass and so on. But I know that guys reach near -6db average and +2db peak levels even before mastering in mixdown, which was exported from Cubase without any gain reduction, near -1 db. How is it possible?:)
Do You think my -15db average and -10db peak levels are ok to get a loud commercial hip-hop song? And in Har-Bal my spectral curve goes a little downward from lows to highs. But when I look at the references of other CDs, the spectral curves goes even upward from lows starting from 200Hz.
Thank You.
Sincerely,
Bracelet Z
Yes, it was the mixdown before mastering and I wrote the numbers, which indicate average and peak levels in Har-Bal. For drums I used electronic hip-hop kit. I've used compressor on the kick and then the limiter jointly with the bass and so on. But I know that guys reach near -6db average and +2db peak levels even before mastering in mixdown, which was exported from Cubase without any gain reduction, near -1 db. How is it possible?:)
Do You think my -15db average and -10db peak levels are ok to get a loud commercial hip-hop song? And in Har-Bal my spectral curve goes a little downward from lows to highs. But when I look at the references of other CDs, the spectral curves goes even upward from lows starting from 200Hz.
Thank You.
Sincerely,
Bracelet Z
I'll agree with the -9dB value equating to 'lifeless'. However, the levels I am seeing from commercial discs analyzed by Har-Bal are in the -3 to -4dB range.
I'd think that if your 'mixdown' levels are in the -6dB range, there has already been a lot of limiting applied. Probably not a good thing if you are wanting your mixdown 'mastered' - no where to take it.
Try to get your mixdown level 'hot' but do not go over (+2dB? - why?). I usually get my mixdown level around -13dB. I add NO limiting or compression to the mix - leaving that to mastering.
I generally go for a range of -5 to -4dBs for the master -- clients want it LOUD.
My set up is:
Pro Tools for mixing
Har-Bal for EQing
T-RackS for limiting
After T-RackS, I bring the mastered file into Har-Bal to review the desired level. I can easily match all song levels this way.
Then, the masters are brought into Pro Tools for final edits (fade ins/outs, etc.) and dithering down to 16-bits/44.1kHz for the CD burn (Roxio).
I'd think that if your 'mixdown' levels are in the -6dB range, there has already been a lot of limiting applied. Probably not a good thing if you are wanting your mixdown 'mastered' - no where to take it.
Try to get your mixdown level 'hot' but do not go over (+2dB? - why?). I usually get my mixdown level around -13dB. I add NO limiting or compression to the mix - leaving that to mastering.
I generally go for a range of -5 to -4dBs for the master -- clients want it LOUD.
My set up is:
Pro Tools for mixing
Har-Bal for EQing
T-RackS for limiting
After T-RackS, I bring the mastered file into Har-Bal to review the desired level. I can easily match all song levels this way.
Then, the masters are brought into Pro Tools for final edits (fade ins/outs, etc.) and dithering down to 16-bits/44.1kHz for the CD burn (Roxio).
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Bracelet Z
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:12 pm
- Location: LT
Hi, Zumbido!
You've mentioned You get around -13dB average. What are peak levels then? The worst think is that we have to try to reach those loud levels, Otherwise we are not good engineers:) I also agree for more breathing and relaxed songs.
I use Cubase for mixdown;
Then Har-Bal to see what correction should be done in the mix;
Then mastering. You know, I still use eq first in the mastering chain. I think it's the habit. Then such thinks like waves multiband and I also use T-Racks multiband limiter for loudness maximization.
Sincerely,
Baracelet Z
You've mentioned You get around -13dB average. What are peak levels then? The worst think is that we have to try to reach those loud levels, Otherwise we are not good engineers:) I also agree for more breathing and relaxed songs.
I use Cubase for mixdown;
Then Har-Bal to see what correction should be done in the mix;
Then mastering. You know, I still use eq first in the mastering chain. I think it's the habit. Then such thinks like waves multiband and I also use T-Racks multiband limiter for loudness maximization.
Sincerely,
Baracelet Z
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Bracelet Z
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:12 pm
- Location: LT
I see that you are refering to the Average & Peak levels in Har-Bal.
Yes, I get about -13dB for the Average value.
I'm looking at a file now.
Average = -13.60
Peak = 2.78
I EQ the file in Har-Bal and then open it up in T-RackS. If I have any obvious EQ problems that show up in Har-Bal, I can redo the mix.
I do not use the 'EQ' section of T-RackS, obviously. I do use the 'Tube-Comp' & 'Multiband-Limiter' sections. Process to make the master. I open this mastered file in Har-Bal and get these values:
Average = -3.13
Peak = 12.62
I can also monitor the master through a Behringer Ultra-Curve Pro 8024 via AES. This device will give me RMS levels.
This particular file reads -5.0 dB RMS, -0. 5dB PEAK. The meter is in increments of 0.5 dB. Just as long as I don't go over '0', I'm good. I do set T-RackS to NOT go over -0.2 dB.
Dithering? Yes I dither. I work at 24-bits until the very last step, which is dithering down to 16-bits. I use a plug-in available in Pro Tools. You need to do this to make your master CD - unless your market has 24-bit CD players.
After I've done my work in Har-Bal and T-RackS I'll put my file into Pro Tools to edit the beginning, fade outs or other edits. I set up a Master Fader and insert a dithering plug-in. Then I bounce to disk. Since I do this on a MAC I'll select '.aif', 16-bit and 44.1kHz. This'll make me a CD ready file.
Yes, I get about -13dB for the Average value.
I'm looking at a file now.
Average = -13.60
Peak = 2.78
I EQ the file in Har-Bal and then open it up in T-RackS. If I have any obvious EQ problems that show up in Har-Bal, I can redo the mix.
I do not use the 'EQ' section of T-RackS, obviously. I do use the 'Tube-Comp' & 'Multiband-Limiter' sections. Process to make the master. I open this mastered file in Har-Bal and get these values:
Average = -3.13
Peak = 12.62
I can also monitor the master through a Behringer Ultra-Curve Pro 8024 via AES. This device will give me RMS levels.
This particular file reads -5.0 dB RMS, -0. 5dB PEAK. The meter is in increments of 0.5 dB. Just as long as I don't go over '0', I'm good. I do set T-RackS to NOT go over -0.2 dB.
Dithering? Yes I dither. I work at 24-bits until the very last step, which is dithering down to 16-bits. I use a plug-in available in Pro Tools. You need to do this to make your master CD - unless your market has 24-bit CD players.
After I've done my work in Har-Bal and T-RackS I'll put my file into Pro Tools to edit the beginning, fade outs or other edits. I set up a Master Fader and insert a dithering plug-in. Then I bounce to disk. Since I do this on a MAC I'll select '.aif', 16-bit and 44.1kHz. This'll make me a CD ready file.
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Bracelet Z
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:12 pm
- Location: LT