Hi everyone. New user to Harbal. Getting to grips with it. Seems great! Really looking forward to 2.2...
Just eq'ing a classical piano recording I've just done. The recording came out a bit middly (used cardioids instead of omni's and had bad on location monitoring environment !) and I've been trying to sort this in Harbal.
What I noticed last night was that when intuit reduced the mids a little (it made no changes to bottom or tops) I got extra hiss / noise. The recording itself is very quiet so the increase is really noticeable. I thought it might be due to masking (or the lack of with the mids reduced) but the noise is present in the "silent" passages.
Has anyone noticed this before? Or is it just me? I'm wondering whether it's some sort of chirping / chattering a bit like you get with NR plugs?
I currently am using version 2.0.
Any thoughts?
Kind regards
Matthew
Hiss / Noise when using Harbal
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mozart999uk
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mozart999uk
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Hi Nitro - thanks for your reply.
As I mentioned above, I thought it might be masking but the noise is evident when the piano is not playing so I don't think it's that,
The recording itself is very quiet .
I tried scooping out similar frequencies with a traditional eq and there's no increase in noise when I do that.....
Any other ideas?
As I mentioned above, I thought it might be masking but the noise is evident when the piano is not playing so I don't think it's that,
The recording itself is very quiet .
I tried scooping out similar frequencies with a traditional eq and there's no increase in noise when I do that.....
Any other ideas?
Sorry, but how does that discount masking? The audibility of noise is a function of its amplitude and its colour / spectral composition. When you filter a signal, be it a apparantly silent passage or not, you will change the spectral composition of the noise in that passage. If you happen to change it in a certain way you may make the noise audible whereas before it was not, or at least not readily. Much the same as if you were to turn the treble control on a cassette player to full you end up hearing a hell of a lot more noise than if you turn it to minimum.
I've experienced similar issues with version 2.0 when I was developing it but after looking for the source found out it was recorded noise on the source, not something Har-Bal had added. It was simply the application of filtering that made it more audible. Similarly, recently I upgraded my CD player and find recorded noise in my CD collection far easier to discern which was troubling at first but it is clear the reason is simply that the top end frequency response is much flatter than my previous CD player which had a mellow top end.
If you are still skeptical I'd be happy to check it out for you. Just email a short snippet of the track (<2Mb in size please) and the filter file you've been using to Har-Bal support and I'll take a look.
Cheers,
Paavo.
I've experienced similar issues with version 2.0 when I was developing it but after looking for the source found out it was recorded noise on the source, not something Har-Bal had added. It was simply the application of filtering that made it more audible. Similarly, recently I upgraded my CD player and find recorded noise in my CD collection far easier to discern which was troubling at first but it is clear the reason is simply that the top end frequency response is much flatter than my previous CD player which had a mellow top end.
If you are still skeptical I'd be happy to check it out for you. Just email a short snippet of the track (<2Mb in size please) and the filter file you've been using to Har-Bal support and I'll take a look.
Cheers,
Paavo.
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mozart999uk
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Thanks for your detailed reply paavo and refreshing me on the fundamentals of masking. thanks also for offering to have a listen to to some specimen files. I may well take you up on this offer.
Please understand I was not wishing to discredit your software in any way.
At the moment I am still not convinced that masking is the issue. However, I will continue to do tests and let you know if I am still unsatisfied. I need to establish as to whether the increased noise is perception or in fact actual. I will sample the existing low level noise as is, on an analyser, apply filtering and then check the level of the file again. If there is an increase in level having applied a modest amount of mid range cut then I hope that will provide further evidence that the problem is not one of psycho acoustics.
I have in fact noticed a small amount of noise increase by switching the eq button in and out even without any filtering applied. However, at the moment this his been a perception rather than meassurement so again, I will do some more tests.
My reason for picking this issue up is that I have a good reputation for producing quiet classical recordings and I feel I must do my utmost to keep this
Kind regards
Matthew Moore
Please understand I was not wishing to discredit your software in any way.
At the moment I am still not convinced that masking is the issue. However, I will continue to do tests and let you know if I am still unsatisfied. I need to establish as to whether the increased noise is perception or in fact actual. I will sample the existing low level noise as is, on an analyser, apply filtering and then check the level of the file again. If there is an increase in level having applied a modest amount of mid range cut then I hope that will provide further evidence that the problem is not one of psycho acoustics.
I have in fact noticed a small amount of noise increase by switching the eq button in and out even without any filtering applied. However, at the moment this his been a perception rather than meassurement so again, I will do some more tests.
My reason for picking this issue up is that I have a good reputation for producing quiet classical recordings and I feel I must do my utmost to keep this
Kind regards
Matthew Moore
Matthew,
Don't get the impression that I'm being defensive. I'm not. I'm prefectly happy with you or any other person raising issues such as this as there may be a problem and if there is I'd like to know about it. I just make the point that I didn't find one when I looked into the same issue during the beta testing phase of version 2.0.
Also, your suggested test is flawed as far as Har-Bal is concerned because you cannot obtain a simple mid-range cut without having a corresponding overall gain across the band because a boost is required to compensate for change in loudness (loudness compensation). If you're not following what I'm saying take a look at the frequency response view for your mid range cut response. You should note that there is an overall full spectrum gain applied to compesate for the loss of loudness that you mid range cut would incur. To make your test valid you will have to take that gain out.
Regards,
Paavo.
Don't get the impression that I'm being defensive. I'm not. I'm prefectly happy with you or any other person raising issues such as this as there may be a problem and if there is I'd like to know about it. I just make the point that I didn't find one when I looked into the same issue during the beta testing phase of version 2.0.
Also, your suggested test is flawed as far as Har-Bal is concerned because you cannot obtain a simple mid-range cut without having a corresponding overall gain across the band because a boost is required to compensate for change in loudness (loudness compensation). If you're not following what I'm saying take a look at the frequency response view for your mid range cut response. You should note that there is an overall full spectrum gain applied to compesate for the loss of loudness that you mid range cut would incur. To make your test valid you will have to take that gain out.
Regards,
Paavo.
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mozart999uk
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Ah of course! Yes - in fact one of the most useful features in Harbal. It makes so much difference to have the loudness comp. Makes ABing so much easier!
In fact maybe I've been very silly and over looked the obvious.
If I make a mid range cut then the loudness compensator will raise the level of the rest of the track and any inherent noise will increase wont it?
Hmmm... have I been a bit of an ass and not looked for the obvious?
that may also explain why I didn't get the same result using a conventional eq.
Doesn't quite answer the problem with increased noise with no filter changes but that maybe just perception on my part. You know what it's like when you want to hear something
Hmm...I'm off to go and find some humble pie to eat
Matthew
In fact maybe I've been very silly and over looked the obvious.
If I make a mid range cut then the loudness compensator will raise the level of the rest of the track and any inherent noise will increase wont it?
Hmmm... have I been a bit of an ass and not looked for the obvious?
that may also explain why I didn't get the same result using a conventional eq.
Doesn't quite answer the problem with increased noise with no filter changes but that maybe just perception on my part. You know what it's like when you want to hear something
Hmm...I'm off to go and find some humble pie to eat
Matthew
Hey,
don't stop your investigation on account of me. You might well find something that I have missed. No need for the humble pie either.
The noise performance through playback in har-bal is different to its performance when written to file. If you want to make critical noise assessments you should do it with results written to file and not through playback. For one thing, most PC audio devices do not have perfect noise immuity from CPU derived noise. This can lead to different noise levels on the output depending on what the CPU is doing at the time.
The HB filter will add noise but the noise floor is around -120dB so it is usually inaudible. I really should run some further tests for this next release to ensure that it still is at that level.
Cheers,
Paavo.
don't stop your investigation on account of me. You might well find something that I have missed. No need for the humble pie either.
The noise performance through playback in har-bal is different to its performance when written to file. If you want to make critical noise assessments you should do it with results written to file and not through playback. For one thing, most PC audio devices do not have perfect noise immuity from CPU derived noise. This can lead to different noise levels on the output depending on what the CPU is doing at the time.
The HB filter will add noise but the noise floor is around -120dB so it is usually inaudible. I really should run some further tests for this next release to ensure that it still is at that level.
Cheers,
Paavo.
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mozart999uk
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thanks for your reply.
I spent a goood deal of time with Harbal last night and really enjoyed taking references from some Sony and Nimbus piano recordings and then comparing them to some of mine. Got some absolutely superb results. It really is a wonderful piece of software.
Also noticed that some other well respected companies recordings are quite noisy
Part of the noise issue may be that I can't use Harbal with my asio driver for some reason - if judders abit - so I have to use multimedia which isn't so good.
However, thanks for taking the time to get involved. I really am enjoying using your product more and more (although I'm sure my peers will shoot me down in flames for using it on classical material) Like I care !
Keep up the good work.
Looking forward to 2.2.
Regards
Matthew
I spent a goood deal of time with Harbal last night and really enjoyed taking references from some Sony and Nimbus piano recordings and then comparing them to some of mine. Got some absolutely superb results. It really is a wonderful piece of software.
Also noticed that some other well respected companies recordings are quite noisy
Part of the noise issue may be that I can't use Harbal with my asio driver for some reason - if judders abit - so I have to use multimedia which isn't so good.
However, thanks for taking the time to get involved. I really am enjoying using your product more and more (although I'm sure my peers will shoot me down in flames for using it on classical material
) Like I care !Keep up the good work.
Looking forward to 2.2.
Regards
Matthew
I once had the same problem.mozart999uk wrote: Part of the noise issue may be that I can't use Harbal with my asio driver for some reason
See :
http://www.har-bal.com/ipw-web/bulletin ... highlight=
Greets
Paul
www.bvbrecording.com
Paul Baekelandt
BVB Recording
Belgium
BVB Recording
Belgium
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mozart999uk
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