Har-Bal top end disscussion
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starrats
Har-Bal top end disscussion
I am a very big fan of Har-Bal, it works for me, and I get great results. But, I have read and even know people who say that Har-Bal has a harsh phasey sound at the top end due to the methods employed in the filter. Anybody else think this? Are the critics barking up the wrong tree? These people I know are very experienced audio folk so I am a bit confused.
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starrats
Har-Bal Sound
I think what I really want to know does Har-Bal have a "sound" in that will it add it's character to your mastering or is it 100% transparent?
Is HarBal phasey?
HarBal does not have a 'sound'. HarBal is purely and simply a digital FIR filter whose sound could be reproduced with exactly the same sound with any other FIR filter implementation that used the same impulse response.
To claim that HarBal is an inferior filter because it produces a phasey top end, to my mind, is simply wrong! If you end up with a phasey top end it is purely because the user designed a filter that produced this quality. The filter in HarBal will implement whatever response you want as a non-recursive FIR. Put simply it is simply a bunch of delayed versions of the same source added together using different weights for each delayed version. There is no scope for Har-Bal to have an "inherent sound".
My suspicion (although there is no way that I can confirm this without them sending me there efforts) is that the people who loudly claim that Har-Bal has a phasey sound is purely and simply because they are not designing an appropriate EQ filter for there track. More than likely, they are trying to do exact spectral matching between a track and a reference, eliminating the natural spectral peaks of one track and replacing them with another. This will produce a phasey sound and if they bothered to read the tutorial in the help file they would realize that we all know that this is not the way we design EQ filters! It is also the very reason HarBal does not have presets or "one button" spectrum matching.
If they really thought about what the spectrum means and what they are doing to it they'd quickly realize the error in their approach. I just find the claim very uniformed with regard to linear filtering and what it actually does. What they claim is akin to saying that because a particular recording made with a particular brand of equipment sounds like crap then the equipment is responsible for that crap sound and is typical of that equipment. Bad recordings are made by people more than technology. That is why there is so many excellent recordings around from as early as the 50's.
Those you complain about HarBal having an inherently phasey sound have come to that conclusion because they don't know how to use it correctly, and possibly haven't even read the tutorial.
Paavo.
PS - Anybody who has a track that they think sounds phasey with HarBal EQ can send me the .anl file for their track and I'll happily create an EQ filter for it "deaf" (ie. without even hearing the track). I'm sure the filter I'd create will not sound phasey. It won't be optimum because I won't be able to hear what I'm doing but I'd bet it would be an improvement apon what they've done.
To claim that HarBal is an inferior filter because it produces a phasey top end, to my mind, is simply wrong! If you end up with a phasey top end it is purely because the user designed a filter that produced this quality. The filter in HarBal will implement whatever response you want as a non-recursive FIR. Put simply it is simply a bunch of delayed versions of the same source added together using different weights for each delayed version. There is no scope for Har-Bal to have an "inherent sound".
My suspicion (although there is no way that I can confirm this without them sending me there efforts) is that the people who loudly claim that Har-Bal has a phasey sound is purely and simply because they are not designing an appropriate EQ filter for there track. More than likely, they are trying to do exact spectral matching between a track and a reference, eliminating the natural spectral peaks of one track and replacing them with another. This will produce a phasey sound and if they bothered to read the tutorial in the help file they would realize that we all know that this is not the way we design EQ filters! It is also the very reason HarBal does not have presets or "one button" spectrum matching.
If they really thought about what the spectrum means and what they are doing to it they'd quickly realize the error in their approach. I just find the claim very uniformed with regard to linear filtering and what it actually does. What they claim is akin to saying that because a particular recording made with a particular brand of equipment sounds like crap then the equipment is responsible for that crap sound and is typical of that equipment. Bad recordings are made by people more than technology. That is why there is so many excellent recordings around from as early as the 50's.
Those you complain about HarBal having an inherently phasey sound have come to that conclusion because they don't know how to use it correctly, and possibly haven't even read the tutorial.
Paavo.
PS - Anybody who has a track that they think sounds phasey with HarBal EQ can send me the .anl file for their track and I'll happily create an EQ filter for it "deaf" (ie. without even hearing the track). I'm sure the filter I'd create will not sound phasey. It won't be optimum because I won't be able to hear what I'm doing but I'd bet it would be an improvement apon what they've done.
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everett
phasey sound
starrats
The explanation above is absolutely correct. If HarBal is used incorrectly, if any audio tool is used incorrectly, you will get bad results. However, I will say this, to use HarBal incorrectly is very difficult unless you're spending hours making every peak and trough match a reference file. When used as an approximating balance adjustment tool the results are quick and accurate and transparent.
I have used Harbal since its inception and would not be using it if I thought HarBal was in any way an inferior tool.
You may if you wish use my name to balance against these so called experts of yours whom it appears haven't got a clue.
My track record is 40 years in the music business as a musician, songwriter, orchestrator, documentary wild life film composer, session musician, recording engineer, mastering engineer, producer, publisher. I have played with some of the finest musicians in both this century and last - and I mean big name recording artists. I have worked on several charting records as a musician and a co-engineer including 3 number 1 hits.
I don't put my name behind audio products lightly in fact very rarely but I do stand behind Har Bal and the testamonial I gave the product for their testamonial page. I tell it to you straight up with no bullshit because ever since the price of digital music collapsed to the point that every man and his dog could buy into this technology the music business is full of bullshit exPURTS (drips that have run dry). There is absolutely NO PHASINESS with HarBal when the tool is used correctly. If there was I wouldn't be using it and I only use top flight equipment. Period.
Everett Hoskins
Cari Vaughn Music
carivaughnmusic.com
The explanation above is absolutely correct. If HarBal is used incorrectly, if any audio tool is used incorrectly, you will get bad results. However, I will say this, to use HarBal incorrectly is very difficult unless you're spending hours making every peak and trough match a reference file. When used as an approximating balance adjustment tool the results are quick and accurate and transparent.
I have used Harbal since its inception and would not be using it if I thought HarBal was in any way an inferior tool.
You may if you wish use my name to balance against these so called experts of yours whom it appears haven't got a clue.
My track record is 40 years in the music business as a musician, songwriter, orchestrator, documentary wild life film composer, session musician, recording engineer, mastering engineer, producer, publisher. I have played with some of the finest musicians in both this century and last - and I mean big name recording artists. I have worked on several charting records as a musician and a co-engineer including 3 number 1 hits.
I don't put my name behind audio products lightly in fact very rarely but I do stand behind Har Bal and the testamonial I gave the product for their testamonial page. I tell it to you straight up with no bullshit because ever since the price of digital music collapsed to the point that every man and his dog could buy into this technology the music business is full of bullshit exPURTS (drips that have run dry). There is absolutely NO PHASINESS with HarBal when the tool is used correctly. If there was I wouldn't be using it and I only use top flight equipment. Period.
Everett Hoskins
Cari Vaughn Music
carivaughnmusic.com
phasey sound
Thanks very much for your words Everett! I think we see eye to eye on this issue.
I'll definitely keep your words in mind should I find myself having to defend HarBal in this regard, but to be honenst, I don't see the need arising. As you say, it is very easy to get the right balance without any phasiness if used correctly. Those using the product incorrectly are few and those who openly criticise on this point even fewer.
Those that fail to understand the nature of the product and who refuse to consult the manual for the correct way to use the product are by an large a lost cause. Those who'll listen I'll happily give my time and assistance to. Those that merely want to pick a fight won't.
Once again, thank you for your support!
Regards,
Paavo.
I'll definitely keep your words in mind should I find myself having to defend HarBal in this regard, but to be honenst, I don't see the need arising. As you say, it is very easy to get the right balance without any phasiness if used correctly. Those using the product incorrectly are few and those who openly criticise on this point even fewer.
Those that fail to understand the nature of the product and who refuse to consult the manual for the correct way to use the product are by an large a lost cause. Those who'll listen I'll happily give my time and assistance to. Those that merely want to pick a fight won't.
Once again, thank you for your support!
Regards,
Paavo.
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starrats
Har-Bal top end
Thanks for the ammo guys. Never doubted this myself. Like I say I get great results with Har-Bal and find that the top end is always pretty easy to get right and once in Har-Bal you can really 'tune out' any little nasties that got through and have the confidence to go to eq multiband at the end. Like anyone involved in mastering I am very particular about the top end. Not too much not too little! Maybe these other guys have both their ears on the same side of their heads?