Har-Bal Users Forum BBS

yodonsen wrote:Hi again

I have got to grips with the segment navigation and I think that it works well, just took a little getting used to. Also having no problems deleting splits now

I have a question:

I opened my file and split it into 3 segments. I made a filter (using the mid trace) and got the first segment sounding how I wanted. Now I want to copy that filter to the third seciton (the middle segment needs a slightly different filter, it's a break) How do I go about copying the first segment's filter to the other segments (so I can apply a slightly different filter to the middle segment?

This is why I was asking how to apply a general master filter before splitting that could then be copied to the segments (leaving a blank outer filter). Then I could just adjust the offending segment slightly differenty to the rest of the track.

Sorry if this explanation is confusing!

Cheers

Ady

Hi Ady , the following is from the Har-Bal Quick Start Manual . pdf :

Design appropriate filter responses for the selected segments to obtain the desired sound. Do so in the 
same manner as with Har‐Bal 2.3 A particularly useful technique is to re‐use responses. For example, a 
track may have a structure verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, verse. It is advantageous to re‐use the 
filter for the verse sections and chorus sections to get a consistent sound. This can be easily done using 
the New Filter dialog box.  
First design the filter response for the first verse. Then select the first verse as a reference segment. Do 
so by clicking and dragging the mouse from the "R" button on the right hand side of the timeline to the 
desired segment. Then select the next verse filter for editing and press the "new filter" toolbar button 
and select the "create a filter for the selected segment based on a reference segment" option. 
When you've completed filter designs for all segments try playing it through. You'll probably find you 
need to fine tune your design to maintain a consistent tonality to the track. If there are inconsistencies 
they will be obviously audible when transitioning from one filter to another. It is useful to use the 
frequency response view and segment referencing to determine why transitions are poorly 
implemented. Another useful thing to consider is where the split is located. Moving a split slightly one 
way or another can help mask and obvious transition.  

All the best
Jan Petter

I finally got to use the program and I'm blown away.
I have used it already but have to read more carefully the readme file as well as the Quick Start Manual.
One thing that I noticed was that the Undo command now includes views. For example:
I make a low shelf change in the Spectrum View
then I click on the Frequency Response tab
then the Histogram Tab
Ctrl-Z takes me back to the Frequency Response window and not to the point right before I made the low shelf change.
Is this meant to be like this? If so, I'd recommend an Undo/Redo History view.

Another thing I found odd was the fact that the timeline position for the reference file is locked to that of the track file. Is this supposed to be like this? It wasn't the case with 2.3.

Thanks,
Sergio

@Jan:

Thanks bro, I tried re-reading everything and couldn't for the life of me find out how to copy the filters around, should have re-read the quick start pdf more closely

I think that right clicking a filter to copy it would be a bit quicker, then simply navigate to the desired segment and paste. Or perhaps another icon or two to the right of the new dynamics node tool for copy/paste/delete filters might make this easier.

At Sergio:

The reference file is the top overview in HB3. You can actually drag it around (even whilst it's playing) to adjust where it plays from. (Great new feature that I stumbled upon by accident this morning

Hi yodonsen,
I came across that feature by accident and panicked because I thought that I had done something wrong that I could not undo.
I prefer the method that 2.3 uses: there are indedendent cursors for both files. On the other hand, maybe I don't know how to use this new feature effectively.
Thanks,
Sergio

Hi Sergio,

The behaviour of the referencing with regard to playback position was revised to the new form you seem to have discovered. There are pro's and con's to either implementation though on balance I think the HB3 implementation is more useful.

I'll explain the reasoning. You're working on a track with intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, verse, chorus, exit structure. You've designed a filter for intro, verse and chorus and you try recycling the verse and chorus filters for the remainder but you find that they are all slightly different and now the tonality shifts through the track.

To try and get it sounding right you save your current filter and open it as a playable reference, then, for example, you slide the first chorus of the reference so that it lines up with the second chorus in the session. Now you can set a loop playing on the chorus and toggle reference to hear the difference between the reference chorus and the one you are working on. To do this with un-coupled cursors as in 2.3 is pretty complicated to achieve.

Another possibility is you've just designed one version of a filter for one track and you've got another version and you can't decide which you prefer. To compare you can open one as the session and another as the reference, play the track and toggle reference. In HB2.3 the playback is not in sync which makes it harder to compare. In HB3 they remain in sync so the playback is glitchless apart from the filter change.

That in a nutshell is my reasoning. It is different from 2.3 and may take a little getting used to but I think it is the better of the two implementations in achieving what I think is required in a mastering context.

cheers,


Paavo.

PS - If you don't already know it this is how you set up a looped playback. While not playing the track cue the track slider to the start of the loop, now click and drag the "looped arrow" button on the base of the cue position marker to the end of the loop. Now press play and it loops between the two. While playing you can alter the loop end position at will. If you want to clear the loop just drag the loop end marker before the playback position and let go of the mouse button.

yodonsen wrote:@Jan:

Thanks bro, I tried re-reading everything and couldn't for the life of me find out how to copy the filters around, should have re-read the quick start pdf more closely

I think that right clicking a filter to copy it would be a bit quicker, then simply navigate to the desired segment and paste. Or perhaps another icon or two to the right of the new dynamics node tool for copy/paste/delete filters might make this easier.

Right click contexting sounds like a good idea in that context. I have to think about how to implement it though.

What part of the copying segment filters are you getting stuck on? Is the problem that you want to copy the outer filter response to a segment filter because that mode of operation is currently not catered for? I did think about doing it but left it out because I didn't consider it a very likely usage and I wanted to release HB3 sooner rather than later.

As always, there's scope for improvement.

cheers,


Paavo.

Hey Paavo

I was asking before about applying the outer filter to segments and you asked for clarification as to why I would want to do so.

I thought that as a quick workflow it would be best to create a general filter for the track (as you would in 2.3) then make track splits with that initial filter transferred to the segments, leaving a new blank outer filter.

If you create the spits first then work on the first verse , you have to navigate to each successive segment and go through the new filter dialogue for each and every one. For tracks that require a lot of segments this would seem far more time consuming then the way I suggested.

Do you see what I mean?

Cheers

Ady

Hi again

One feature that I miss from 2.3 is the ability to change the gain of the reference track. This allowed me to compare the tracks at equivalent RMS values.

I realise that you can change the gain of the track being edited but if I want to hear my track without the effects of dynamics, the edited track disables the limiter gain and I can no longer hear the track and reference at matched volumes.

Is there a workaround for this?

Thanks

Ady

Hi Ady,

Yes, I can now see what your after. That you could do it in HB2.3 was more by accident than design though I can see a point for it.

I can possibly re-instate it. What concerns me about it is possible ambiguity leading to confusion. As it is at present the Gain / Air and filter controls only affect the track you are working on and not the reference. Going to the 2.3 model, users may find it confusing that the Gain changes the reference and not the session if the toggle reference button is in. I have been confused by that myself in version 2.3.

cheers,


Paavo.

What is the name of the "R" button on the right hand side of the timeline and what is it's exact functionality?

Thanks,
Byron Santo

The R button in the timeline control is for selecting segment references. This is how you use it.

Assuming you have broken your track into segments, mouse over the R button, press and hold down the left mouse button and drag the mouse over the segment (in the bottom bar in the timeline control) you want to set as a reference. As you drag you should not that the segment turns red and the spectrum shows in red on the spectrum graph. If you now let go of the mouse button the segment reference is set.

Anything in Har-Bal tied in with references (intuitMatch, metch loudness etc) will work relative the segment reference.

cheers,


Paavo.

HarBal wrote:The R button in the timeline control is for selecting segment references. This is how you use it.

Assuming you have broken your track into segments, mouse over the R button, press and hold down the left mouse button and drag the mouse over the segment (in the bottom bar in the timeline control) you want to set as a reference. As you drag you should not that the segment turns red and the spectrum shows in red on the spectrum graph. If you now let go of the mouse button the segment reference is set.

Anything in Har-Bal tied in with references (intuitMatch, metch loudness etc) will work relative the segment reference.

cheers,


Paavo.

Thanks Paavo!

I created three splits and assigned the filter response to each segment. I then decided to change my mind and these are the steps that has crashed 3.0 multiple times

1) Press the "Create New Filter Button"
2) Select ""a blank filter and delete all split points"

All other options were deselected

Every time I have had segments with a filter response assigned to a segment 3.0 crashes. If no filter responses are assigned 3.0 does not crash. It simply deletes the splits

Thanks for the explanation Paavo.
And thanks for the double arrow that allows the plot to be overlaid with that of the reference. It's great that now the original plot moves too and no more left click+0 to do so.
Sergio

ByronSanto wrote:I created three splits and assigned the filter response to each segment. I then decided to change my mind and these are the steps that has crashed 3.0 multiple times

1) Press the "Create New Filter Button"
2) Select ""a blank filter and delete all split points"

All other options were deselected

Every time I have had segments with a filter response assigned to a segment 3.0 crashes. If no filter responses are assigned 3.0 does not crash. It simply deletes the splits

Excellent! Thanks for that. I was able to successfully reproduce the crash so I should be able to fix it.

cheers,


Paavo.