Har-Bal Users Forum BBS

Hi Paavo;

When you mention the pink noise analyzer I decided to give this Auto EQing a go. I know from searching for info on this topic, that there is a lot of controversy but being the person I am, I make my own judgments on things....that is why I now own Har-Bal.

I was going to use the free Room EQ wizard but it looked like to much nonsense to me so I rented the Dbx DriveRack PA+ ($50.00 with impulse mic and stand). Ideally I would like to have used IK's ARC system, but $500.00+ on an experiment is too much. I was quite surprised by the results. I knew very well my room was not perfect, especially in the bass area and I had this "honking" sound in my mixes ( I was guessing about 1K). I started with my Yamaha HS50Ms. I adjusted the eq switches on the Yamaha's until I had the least EQing to do.

I loaded the results in the wonderful AAY-Audio dual channel 31 band graphic EQ. I put it in the master bus and the EQ is disabled when printing my mixes.

I was a bit skeptical about the eq curve since in added more bass and more mids but the proof was in the mix. It sounded about 500% better and the "honking" was gone; yes, it was a 2db cut in the 1k on the left speaker and 1.5db cut in the left. This makes sense as my room is not square and one speaker points towards a 90 degree corner and the other is directed at the 120 degree corner.

With this done, I went on to do my other 2 sets of monitors with the biggest winner being the BX8a Deluxe by M-Audio I was going to putting up for sale. The flat EQing was very drastic (= or - up to 3 db) but when I did a "consumer" eq curve, there as only slight changes in the in EQ. This confirmed my suspicions that these speakers were not flat from the start. But with the eqing, they became much more desirable.

I was very happy also to see that while my room was not perfect, it certainly was not bad. None of the setting were over +or- 3 db mostly being .5 to 1.5 db adjustments.

I know that there is a lot of negative talk about auto EQing but I am only trying to make my music sounds its best on the budget I have. I do not see the difference if I tweak the room with more treatment or I tweak the speakers with EQ; the end result is the same to me, better sounding mixes.

Thanks for the info.

From your discussion I take it that you used your 31 band EQ to compensate for the anomalies.

The reason why such an approach is usually frowned upon is that the compensation filter response realised by graphic EQ's is usually not minimum phase, nor is it closely matched to the compensation required in the measured response (31 bands is pretty coarse). As a result, rooms treated electronically through graphic EQ's often seem to lose sharpness and definition in the process. That is why devices like ARC and Audessey perform better at this job.

In particular, you should avoid treating holes in the response below 300Hz with graphic EQ's as this will certainly bring a smeared sound quality to it if you do. The reason for this is because the compensation topology does not match the topology of the cause (namely room standing waves). If those are to be treated electronically then they need to be treated by "echo cancellation" techniques and not general frequency domain manipulation.

Given your level of adjustment is small, I have no doubt that you can obtain better monitoring conditions through graphic EQ treatment. To obtain the best possible outcomes just make sure you don't do any boosting below 300Hz to fill in wholes in the response for the above reasons. If the bass is too boomy. by all means provide some cut, but try not to overly distort the peak-trough relationships in that region as you'll probably end up creating low frequency masking of the mid range.

cheers,


Paavo.

Yes I put the same setting from the DriveRack into the 31 band EQ VST. The VST is a dual channel version so I was able to use independent setting (like the DriveRack does) for left and right.

Thanks for the tips on the settings. I do have one set of speakers that does have boosting below 300 hz and I will try modifying the setting and do a mix or two to see the improvements.

Yes, I understand the ARC would do the job much better and really this was done as a inexpensive experiment to find out a few things:

1-to see how well my room was treated. Less EQing would mean the treatment was satisfactory. Actually, I looked at the results and notice the left side have more bass correction than the right (due to the fact that the left side face a corner in the back) so I modified my bass traps and changed some things and made another pass with the DBX. I did that about two more times, adjusting , and then checking and now the left side has a lot less eqing than it did before.

2-to see if I was really going to keep the BX8A's. Up until about six weeks ago, I was using a set of KRK Rokit 5 monitors. I had been using them for about a year but not liking the results. I sold them after getting a great deal on 2 sets of speakers for $500.00. A set of Yamaha HS50Ms and the M-Audio Bx8As. I LOVE the Yamaha's. Best mixing speakers I ever had. I wanted the BX8A to be sort of like mains, to track with and to check mixes on but not be the main mixing speakers. However, the bass was undefined and boomy and I found the top end somewhat harsh. After the Eqing though, they sound great. Better imaging and better bass translation, they have become quite useful.

3-to see if using Arc would be useful to me. Arc is very expensive and before I purchase it I wanted to know if it would worth it. if I had been as satisfied as I am with the improvements on the M-Audio's,just with the eq, I would be getting rid of them and getting something else. I would have not been able to afford new speakers and ARC as well. So if ARC hadn't help the BX8a's I would have been stuck with them while I saved up to replace them. But since the EQ experiment worked out, I can keep the BX8a and move toward making ARC my next purchase before I start mixing down.

All in all, the experiment is a success to me as for as I am concerned. I was able to check and correct my room treatment, decide on if I was going to keep the m-Audio's and that realized ARC would help all my speakers. I will be more than satisfied to keep using the EQ setting that I have right now while I finish off writing my material. And who knows my ears might get so used to the sound that I will not want ARC.

I honestly feel that some people do not spend enough time getting to know their speakers and room before the make a judgment. When I first got Har-Bal I originally installed it on our main computer (my DAW was under construction) in our living room and got AMAZING results on a set of small Altec Lansing book-shelf speakers. When I moved Har-Bal to my DAW (and removed it from the living room) my results where not so good. Why? Because when I come home from work my wife and I do not watch much TV we mainly listen to music and talk. So for 4 to 5 hours every evening we have music playing in our living room and we have been doing so through the same system in the same apartment for years. My ears have just become accustomed to that environment. When I moved it to my studio, everything was so new in their I was not sure about the changes I was making. However after using Har-Bal in my studio for a couple of weeks now, my work far surpasses my work in the living room because of the superior listening environment and the higher quality monitors. Also I spent a great deal of time in the room to get accustomed to all the new changes.

I think sometimes monitors get blamed when other problems may be the factor. Sure, a set of Adam A7's will outperform a set of BX8a's or SR8's, but so they should at over double the price. I believe a well treated room and even a ARCing to tweak it will make any speaker sound better and a lot of the mid priced monitors available would be more than sufficient for the average home project studio. Especially if they take the time to learn the speakers. I saw this guy on You-tube showing off his Nekko and a set of Adam A7's. He had them set up in a completely untreated environment (his living room) and I thought to myself, how good will that sound? Adam make great speakers but they still need the proper (or maybe even more so) treatment in the listening room. For the same price as the Adam monitors, he could have bought cheaper monitors and spent the difference on room treatment. He would most likely get better results even though the monitors would be of lower quality.

You speak with a lot of wisdom. I think our viewpoints pretty much coincide. Even to the point of being comfortable enough with your current setup to not bother with ARC. That is pretty much my feeling on the matter too.

I know myself that my system could benefit from some minor additional digital compensation but I'm not convinced of the cost benefit for me ($5K Audessey system with probably only marginal improvement). I'd say if you have early reflection related imaging problems it would most likely show a significant improvement but if you don't then the improvement will be less dramatic.

In my case, the main room issue I have is the primary standing wave mode for the room. Everything is essentially where it should be. That again makes me reticent to invest in Audessey just to fix that problem because although their bass equalisation seems to work (I know someone with Audessey) I not convinced that their approach on handling that end of the spectrum is optimum. I want to have a stab at it myself when I get this V3 HarBal release out of the way.

I totally agree with you discussion on listening and being "aware" of how your system sounds. As has always been the case, most people seem to gear obsessed to even notice what the room may be doing to the sound they are hearing. Similarly, people love buying really big speakers (if they have the money that is) irrespective of the size of their listening room, when in fact they'd find choosing a speaker to match the size of the room would work much better.

I think the best compliment I've had on my listening environment came from one of my partners friends who said he love the sound of my surround sound system. It came as a bit of a surprise to him that he was actually listening to 2 track stereo rather than 5.1.

Cheers,


Paavo.

Sorry for taking so long between replies. Music is now a serious hobby to me (I used to be semi-pro before CTS) and I have to fit it in when I can.

Thanks, I try to think in a level-headed manner in all aspects of life, not just speakers..he he he. I sort of chuckle when I hear people dropping names about owning big named (and big price tag) gear because in my day, way back in the 70's it was sort of a rule that the worse a guys rig is, the better his playing was. It is always the guy with a drum kit made up a of every color (and brand) or the rainbow that just blew you away.

You bring a very good point about the size of the speaker in respect to the size of the room. In fact, I am even wondering if my BX8a's are too big for my room?

I think the problem is that the home studios have become a cash cow for the companies, just like home renovations did a while back. For a lark, called about 6 or so music stores and asked them to recommend a set of studio monitors. They all said "ADAM A7", some adding to make sure I get the new "X" model. They never asked if the room was treated, what size the room was, what type of music...just ADAM A7. I finally said to the last guy was "ADAM must be giving you a heck of a profit margin on these things because you are the sixth store to recommend them". There was measurable silence and then all he said was Yamaha HS50m or Avantone Mixcubes and hung up!

Point is people need to go to to the source for the questions to be answered; they need to visit studios and speak real engineers not to salesmen.

I have had another revelation occour, thanks to Har-Bal, that has me seriously considering switching my DAW software. Please check out my next thread in the Har Bal forum.

Hello Jetflow1,
Thanks for the info on the graphic eq. I was quite unaware of that one. Interestingly, there is a Q-factor on each slider and that makes it much more versatile than an outboard eq for sure!

I have used ARC and I must say that it helps clear things up in the room. I am moving my setup into another room to which I can apply room treatments. My intention is to use ARC until those renovations are complete.

I use ARC quite a bit, but I can't say that I always use it. Many times I like to listen with ARC off and in that case I listen at a very close proximity to the speakers so as to minimize the influence of the room. I don't think ARC is a magic bullet, but it helps as a point of reference.

Coincidently I also have some Yamaha HS50M's, but I prefer the sound of the EV MS-802's that I have had for years. The bass extension is much lower on the EV's and the HS50M's only go down to 59hz. So I also use the HS10W subwoofer.

You are welcome. The AAY is a really great graphic EQ I stumbled upon. For $29.00 you cannot beat it.
Well I am not using the DBX settings anymore nor am I going to be getting ARC for the time being as well. I found the main problem was the way my VSTs sounded. I had thought perhaps it was my room or maybe the monitors but in reality it was the sound of the VSTs that was causing the problems. They always seemed to have this digital "aftertaste" that I could not EQ out or multiband compress out. I started using Samplitude and right away my mixes got better. Paavo was saying that most like due to the way various host interact with plugins and I think he is right. Since I do not use audio at all (exclusivly VST in the box deal) I have no idea if that suffers from the same problem.

I love the Yamahas but they do wear your ears down. I have a set of M-Audio BX8a Deluxes that I use for tracking and reference. The thing is they are pretty new to me so I cannot make a judgement whether I like them or not. They seem nice enough sounding and I like the low end on them, it helps a lot, I guess something like your EVs do for you. They do not seem flat thoug, they seem to have a bit of a consumer curve to them and I am not much for Kevlar too much either. I always find it stiff sounding..maybe it is just me.