Hi,
I've found that each time that I use my outboard EQ (Manley Massive Passive) after using Harbal, I end up changing the shape of the frequency spectrum dramatically. I'm using only a wide Q with only 1 db (sometimes 2) boost or cut with my Manley, but I'm getting back the sharp peaks and valleys when I review through my Harbal.
I really do want to incorporate the use of my $5k detented EQ. Do I need to used narrower Q width, focus on a different frequency range, or how else should I go about this? Also what does the 2, 3, 4, etc on the left of the spectrum screen mean? I'm not sure of what the +10 db [re 100 p] means either.
Thank You.
Using Eq after Harbal
+10 and -4 are options given to hardware to make them compatible with consumer and professional gear...
Now, I have to ask, why are you surprised that using your outboard EQ (regardless of price, brand or quality) changes the spectrum, that's kinda what they are supposed to do.
Are you wanting to use the Manley simply for the sake of using it, because you paid 5k for it or why? After HarBalizing do you really need additional EQing? If so, why not do it in your $100 copy of HarBal and sell the Manley and go buy a car instead
Just curious of why you feel you need to work in the Manley, if there is a reason other than "cuz I paid 5k for it", if that's the only reason, then I'd sell it.
Now, I have to ask, why are you surprised that using your outboard EQ (regardless of price, brand or quality) changes the spectrum, that's kinda what they are supposed to do.
Are you wanting to use the Manley simply for the sake of using it, because you paid 5k for it or why? After HarBalizing do you really need additional EQing? If so, why not do it in your $100 copy of HarBal and sell the Manley and go buy a car instead
Just curious of why you feel you need to work in the Manley, if there is a reason other than "cuz I paid 5k for it", if that's the only reason, then I'd sell it.
Re: Using Eq after Harbal
neospecneospec wrote:Hi,
I've found that each time that I use my outboard EQ (Manley Massive Passive) after using Harbal, I end up changing the shape of the frequency spectrum dramatically. I'm using only a wide Q with only 1 db (sometimes 2) boost or cut with my Manley, but I'm getting back the sharp peaks and valleys when I review through my Harbal.
I really do want to incorporate the use of my $5k detented EQ. Do I need to used narrower Q width, focus on a different frequency range, or how else should I go about this? Also what does the 2, 3, 4, etc on the left of the spectrum screen mean? I'm not sure of what the +10 db [re 100 p] means either.
Thank You.
Walk me through something here.
Tell us step by step how you are incorporating your hardware with Har-Bal. Are you Har-Balizing your track and then sending it out via analog to the Manley and then feeding it back into the system?
I could easily see how you are changing the spectrum.....possibly because you are trying to get the best sound for your room. Problem is .....if your room is not acoustically correct you may get it sounding great (but only for that room)
Har-Bal corrects the spectrum so it sounds great everywhere
You may be adding too much bass/mid range or highs in the hardware unit, but not using an analyzer to see if you are overcompensating.
The range on the left simply serves as a guideline or ruler if you will. It has no effect on the overall volume of your track. If you load a reference you can do a wide "Q" and pul it up or down without affecting any volume changes.
The vertical scale is in dB so if you want to pull down a particular region by 3dB then you can use the scale as a guide. Probably a better
way to read this is to take note of the values printed in the status bar as your drag your spectrum with the mouse. The actual axis values are reported here to make it easier for you to read. As for what the dB value actually corresponds to, the dB reference 100p = 0.0000001 and that is a power reference (ie. signal squared). That corresponds to a reference of 1/100,000th of full scale
Earle
Dan and Earle, thanks for the prompt response. I'm surprised at how active this forum is 
I've bought the massive passive because I felt that eventually I can learn to hear boosts and cutts in the frequency... it's much easier said then done especially if we are talking about narrow bandwidth (Q) and 2 db of cut.
Regarding what I'm doing with Harbal is that I'm using it to spatially balance each track before using my analog tools. I'm trying to be very gentle with the boost such as a boost in the 250 Hz range to beef the mix up if it calls for it. I'm using the fairly wide Q with maybe a db of boost.
After mastering and burning the master to a disc. I pop the disc into my laptop and check to see how the frequency spectrum looks in Har-bal. Normally there is a spike in a few places. It just doesn't make too much sense to me that I would get a sharp spike when I did something that was very minor with my outboard EQ.
My other questions have been answered, thanks.
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newspec
I've bought the massive passive because I felt that eventually I can learn to hear boosts and cutts in the frequency... it's much easier said then done especially if we are talking about narrow bandwidth (Q) and 2 db of cut.
Regarding what I'm doing with Harbal is that I'm using it to spatially balance each track before using my analog tools. I'm trying to be very gentle with the boost such as a boost in the 250 Hz range to beef the mix up if it calls for it. I'm using the fairly wide Q with maybe a db of boost.
After mastering and burning the master to a disc. I pop the disc into my laptop and check to see how the frequency spectrum looks in Har-bal. Normally there is a spike in a few places. It just doesn't make too much sense to me that I would get a sharp spike when I did something that was very minor with my outboard EQ.
My other questions have been answered, thanks.
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newspec
one more thing I want to mention about my room. it doesn't have floated hardwood floors, rpg diffuser floated walls and ceiling, but I did treat it with plenty of cheap auralex foam and t fusers in the back.
We don't have anyone that knows how to tune a room. Is there a device or an alternative method to tuning a room yourself? Thanks.
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neospec
We don't have anyone that knows how to tune a room. Is there a device or an alternative method to tuning a room yourself? Thanks.
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neospec
On your room acoustics, have you checked the reverb time and the spectral shape of the decay. See this article for more info:
http://har-bal.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/vi ... .php?t=244
On your original question about why the peaks have changed in your outbound EQ'd version, I gather the changes are mostly seen in the peak spectrum trace and that they are confined to 4 dB or less, correct?
If so, that is entirely plausible to me if your outbound EQ'd track has a different phasing to the pre-outbound EQ'd one. That is, if you track either side by side in your DAW and you find that one starts at a different time to the other (because it has more or less leader silence in it) then the peak analysis will be different. This is because the analysis involves segmenting the track into overlapping sections which are windowed and then Fourier transformed on a segment by segment basis. If the timing / phasing is different then the resulting analysis will be different. That's just the nature of blocked discrete Fourier transforms. The average trace should be largely the same, however. I suspect this is where your added peaks are coming from.
Regards,
Paavo.
http://har-bal.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/vi ... .php?t=244
On your original question about why the peaks have changed in your outbound EQ'd version, I gather the changes are mostly seen in the peak spectrum trace and that they are confined to 4 dB or less, correct?
If so, that is entirely plausible to me if your outbound EQ'd track has a different phasing to the pre-outbound EQ'd one. That is, if you track either side by side in your DAW and you find that one starts at a different time to the other (because it has more or less leader silence in it) then the peak analysis will be different. This is because the analysis involves segmenting the track into overlapping sections which are windowed and then Fourier transformed on a segment by segment basis. If the timing / phasing is different then the resulting analysis will be different. That's just the nature of blocked discrete Fourier transforms. The average trace should be largely the same, however. I suspect this is where your added peaks are coming from.
Regards,
Paavo.
I wrote an article with basic room tuning concepts, more a simple room "ringingout" you can read it at http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/ ... tory&id=29 it may help a little bit to find the bad frequencies.
Additionally, if you use good near field monitors, the effects of the room itself should be minimized, as thats how the near fields are designed. It's the larger format speakers that are affected more by room tuning.
Additionally, if you use good near field monitors, the effects of the room itself should be minimized, as thats how the near fields are designed. It's the larger format speakers that are affected more by room tuning.
i was told that when i was shopping for monitors. i got the earthworks monitor which is one of the most accurate near fields that ive came across. i just found out yesterday that i could have bought those dunlavy sc5 in excellence condition for about $1500 from ebay..heartbraking.
as far as the phasing and how that affects how things turn out. is there any solutions that you can think of to help make my outboard gear work in phase with Har-Bal? I've spoken to Earle and he told me that he would use har-bal to get rid of the sharp peaks and valleys and then use his outboard eq or other eq to make gradual changes to help the mix.
right now i'm using my laptop to process the mix through harbal. after that i burn the mix to disc and then i take that to my workstation and upload it. can that be my problem? do i need to have harbal in my workstation? How is Earle doing his work? Thanks.
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neospec
as far as the phasing and how that affects how things turn out. is there any solutions that you can think of to help make my outboard gear work in phase with Har-Bal? I've spoken to Earle and he told me that he would use har-bal to get rid of the sharp peaks and valleys and then use his outboard eq or other eq to make gradual changes to help the mix.
right now i'm using my laptop to process the mix through harbal. after that i burn the mix to disc and then i take that to my workstation and upload it. can that be my problem? do i need to have harbal in my workstation? How is Earle doing his work? Thanks.
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neospec
Well, on which system you do your processing really shouldn't matter. Personally, while I am no expert or anything, I do all my processing to "help the mix" before using HarBal...HarBal is the last bit of EQing I do. I take what I consider my final mix of the song, then run it thru HarBal to harmonically balance the music. After that only maximizing or compressing if necessary.
But thats just me, what do I know...I'm just a web developer...
But thats just me, what do I know...I'm just a web developer...
I think you've over$pent on gear and ignored your room.
I can probably get better results with a pair of $500 M-Audio speakers and Har-Bal because I invested in my 'room'.
Pasting foam on walls wont really do much - even if it's over-priced Auralex.
Start here:
Ethan Winer
Learn from this guy.
I can probably get better results with a pair of $500 M-Audio speakers and Har-Bal because I invested in my 'room'.
Pasting foam on walls wont really do much - even if it's over-priced Auralex.
Start here:
Ethan Winer
Learn from this guy.
hi ethan,
thank you for that link. as far as what i did to treat the room. first i had to get someone to build a room within this big room i had. that costed about 5 grand. my side walls are non parallel to each other. i filled that back side with diffusors and got pyramids and bass traps for the room because there was a noticable 'ring.' I probably could have done a much better job if i would have focused on the construction of the room and not having to worry about the ugly foam.
we're planning on moving soon, so i'll defiantly look into the realtraps. they look so much better then the auralex products and from what i can see they are used in better facilities. have you checked out rpg inc? I may incorporate there diffusors with the real traps.
my room is not a huge concern because i know that it's quite and there isn't a ring. im mainly concerned about the development of my ear and what i'm going to do in the meantime to help fill the void of my undeveloped ear (har-bal). i can tell what frequencies have been boosted or cut by 12 db in specific ranges like 31, 63, 250, etc. check out the golden ear training by dave moulton.
anyways thanks for the good link.
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neospec
thank you for that link. as far as what i did to treat the room. first i had to get someone to build a room within this big room i had. that costed about 5 grand. my side walls are non parallel to each other. i filled that back side with diffusors and got pyramids and bass traps for the room because there was a noticable 'ring.' I probably could have done a much better job if i would have focused on the construction of the room and not having to worry about the ugly foam.
we're planning on moving soon, so i'll defiantly look into the realtraps. they look so much better then the auralex products and from what i can see they are used in better facilities. have you checked out rpg inc? I may incorporate there diffusors with the real traps.
my room is not a huge concern because i know that it's quite and there isn't a ring. im mainly concerned about the development of my ear and what i'm going to do in the meantime to help fill the void of my undeveloped ear (har-bal). i can tell what frequencies have been boosted or cut by 12 db in specific ranges like 31, 63, 250, etc. check out the golden ear training by dave moulton.
anyways thanks for the good link.
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neospec
hi ethan,
i just realized you've written that article, lol. wow, that's awesome. i do have a few questions about your traps. will i be able to move the traps from one room to another without damage (were moving soon)? i've read your FAQ and that wasn't explained. i know that the auralex foam will never leave that room because of the messy glue...which is a good thing, because they are really ugly.
thanks.
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neospec.
i just realized you've written that article, lol. wow, that's awesome. i do have a few questions about your traps. will i be able to move the traps from one room to another without damage (were moving soon)? i've read your FAQ and that wasn't explained. i know that the auralex foam will never leave that room because of the messy glue...which is a good thing, because they are really ugly.
thanks.
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neospec.
neospec,
zumbido here. I am NOT Ethan Winer.
You can certainly e-mail him, as I have in the past. He is EXTREMELY knowledgeable on the subject of room acoustics and treatment.
I followed many of his ideas and designs when I built my 10-sided control room. You can save TONS of money by making your own traps and diffusors.
zumbido here. I am NOT Ethan Winer.
You can certainly e-mail him, as I have in the past. He is EXTREMELY knowledgeable on the subject of room acoustics and treatment.
I followed many of his ideas and designs when I built my 10-sided control room. You can save TONS of money by making your own traps and diffusors.
neospec, he does bring up a point, that actually is very common, I seeit on my forum all the time. People over-concentrating on gear and not concentrating on how to use it, or making the most of it.
Personally, I run my studio (professionally and as a hobby) on the less is more theory. I don't have a ton of gear, but what I have I can use to it's fullest potential, and I know it all intimately. One can be far more effective conentrating on the skill and the art rather than the gear.A good engineer can make great sound on mediocre equipment. A poor engineer sounds lame on even the best stuff.
Not saying that is you, but, just in case that story hits close to home, think about it. I don't know you well enough to make that judgement, but you know you well enough
Personally, I run my studio (professionally and as a hobby) on the less is more theory. I don't have a ton of gear, but what I have I can use to it's fullest potential, and I know it all intimately. One can be far more effective conentrating on the skill and the art rather than the gear.A good engineer can make great sound on mediocre equipment. A poor engineer sounds lame on even the best stuff.
Not saying that is you, but, just in case that story hits close to home, think about it. I don't know you well enough to make that judgement, but you know you well enough