Waves Linear Phase EQ versus Harbal?

[AntonyR]

Hi

I have the Waves Linear Phase EQ that I have not really used since I purchased Harbal, as I use Harbal to do the EQing. I've recently purchased and read the book from Bob Katz on Mastering Audio, and he talks about Linear Phase EQs as being much better unless you are looking for some particular EQ artifacts in your track.

How does the Waves Linear Phase EQ compare to the quality of Harbal? For example, would I be better to use Harbal to see the frequence response and if I see a peak around 350Hz then use the LinEQ to adjust it instead of Harbal?

Thanks

Antony

[har-bal]

Hi

I have the Waves Linear Phase EQ that I have not really used since I purchased Harbal, as I use Harbal to do the EQing. I've recently purchased and read the book from Bob Katz on Mastering Audio, and he talks about Linear Phase EQs as being much better unless you are looking for some particular EQ artifacts in your track.

How does the Waves Linear Phase EQ compare to the quality of Harbal? For example, would I be better to use Harbal to see the frequence response and if I see a peak around 350Hz then use the LinEQ to adjust it instead of Harbal?

Thanks

Antony

Antony

To get an ideal of the difference between linear phase and minimum phase have a look at the same filter response in Impulse response view with minimum phase realisation and then a linear phase realisation. The minimum phase realisation has minimum phase delay and a ringing tail. The linear phase realisation has a pure time delay of half the filter length and is symmetric about the middle giving a pre and post ringing response.

Linear phase is not natural since nature is causal. In laymans terms it means that you don't have a response pre-empting the event, the pre-ringing is pre-empting or predicting the main event which is the spike in the middle. Non-causal systems cannot be realized because of this but we can work around it through adding a pure time delay to make it causal.

What does all this mean in the context of EQ. Minimum phase, being the way of nature, is regarded as sounding more natural. If you listen very carefully you can pick up a subtle difference in the top end (or at least I think so) but I don't find linear phase objectionable. If you want natural sounding EQ I'd suggest sticking with minimum phase.
The option is in there because it essentially cost nothing to implement. I'd expect most people would leave it in the default.

If you still want to change Har-Bal to Linear Phase you can do so by going to Options/Equalizer on the toolbar and clicking on "Linear Phase".

Regards,


Paavo.

[AntonyR]

Paavo, thanks for your response. My question was more to do the decision of using Wave LinEQ versus Harbal Lin EQ. ie. would you expect Harbal Linear EQ to produce equal results to Waves LinEQ, or would you expect it to be better or worse?

I assume it comes down to the algorithms coded in each tool, and maybe some people would prefer one over the other just out of personal preference - assuming there was a difference in sound.

The key reason behind my question is the approach I am considering taking with my mixing/pre-mastering activities. Currently I get a good solid mix and then export to 24bit wave file. I use Harbal to balance the EQ and then import that into a master project where I typically use a little LinMB and L2. However, what I find, is that using the Harbal EQ and LinMB can result in the balance and punchiness of the mix sounding good but the vocals may now be too prominent in the mix or not prominent enough - usually the former, and I find myself going back to the original mix, lowering the vocals and then going through the process again of Harbal and LinMB, etc. An alternative approach would be to use the master output in Cubase to have the LinEQ, LinMB and L2 in the original mix project, where I can use Harbal to tell me the frequency curve and I can make adjustments in the original mix project to the LinEQ, and then do the LinMB and if I find that the vocals are a little prominent, or whatever, I can lower them directly in the mix to get the desired level. I can then export mix to Harbal to use the loudiness match facility and set the L2 appropriately to match all other tracks I have done.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

Antony

[har-bal]

Paavo, thanks for your response. My question was more to do the decision of using Wave LinEQ versus Harbal Lin EQ. ie. would you expect Harbal Linear EQ to produce equal results to Waves LinEQ, or would you expect it to be better or worse?

I assume it comes down to the algorithms coded in each tool, and maybe some people would prefer one over the other just out of personal preference - assuming there was a difference in sound.

The key reason behind my question is the approach I am considering taking with my mixing/pre-mastering activities. Currently I get a good solid mix and then export to 24bit wave file. I use Harbal to balance the EQ and then import that into a master project where I typically use a little LinMB and L2. However, what I find, is that using the Harbal EQ and LinMB can result in the balance and punchiness of the mix sounding good but the vocals may now be too prominent in the mix or not prominent enough - usually the former, and I find myself going back to the original mix, lowering the vocals and then going through the process again of Harbal and LinMB, etc. An alternative approach would be to use the master output in Cubase to have the LinEQ, LinMB and L2 in the original mix project, where I can use Harbal to tell me the frequency curve and I can make adjustments in the original mix project to the LinEQ, and then do the LinMB and if I find that the vocals are a little prominent, or whatever, I can lower them directly in the mix to get the desired level. I can then export mix to Harbal to use the loudiness match facility and set the L2 appropriately to match all other tracks I have done.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

Antony

Antony

Lets think about a few things for a second.

You stated that the vocals are too prominent at the mastering stage and that you normally have to go back and correct them in the mix.
Are the vocals extremely dynamic?
If so, you need to define the parameters using compression.
When you have finished mixing listen to the track from another room. If the vocals are too loud you will know immediately. Simply make a note of the vocal level and bring it all the way down. Either you or someone else should bring them up slowly while someone is listening from another room.

If you are absolutely sure about the vocals at this point.....export as a stereo track.

If at the mastering stage your vocals appear to be to become louder after the track is processed then the settings are incorrect somewhere.

Normally in some of my chains if using the Lin Eq I just use the preset (remove dc and low rumble) I am finished with it. I only use the Lin EQ lowband.

Now lets move on to the Waves LMB. (I actually prefer the multi compressor that comes standard with Wavelab)

1. Choose full reset
2. Choose adaptive opto mastering
3.Play the entire song.
4.Notice the numbers that appeared at the very bottom
5. Plug these numbers into the corresponding threshold boxes above in each column.
6. Toggle the button on the right so the gain is automatically made up, no matter the changes you make.
7. Play the song and start slowly bringing down the main threshold until the song starts to blend. (Stop)
8. If you are saying the vocals are too loud at this point pull down the corresponding "gain" button (usually the third from the left) until the vocals are immersed into the track.
9. Set the outceiling on your L2 to -0.1 and start pulling down your threshold. If there is no activity on the L2 meters you have gone too far.

You are done.

The reason I prefer the steinberg multicompressor that comes standard in Wavelab is because it makes the sound fat. It takes a little getting used too but it is ingenious. You can use the FM radio preset as a starting point and work from there. When I use it I set the outceiling on the L2 to -0.1 and the threshold to 0.0. I use the volume control on the multi compressor to get me where I need to be.

Normally, when I have corrected the spectral image in Har-Bal prior to importing into Wavelab. I rarely have a need to further EQ.
I just use the multicompressor to shape the sound and end up with happy clients daily

Cheers

Earle

[AntonyR]

Earle, thanks for the explanation - much appreciated.

Re. the vocals being too loud......I think this is related to LinMB as it is after this step that the vocals can stand out a little too prominent. I already do everything you say apart from specifically pull down the 3rd band on it's own to blend the vocals. I will give that a try. What I've found is that if I do a Harbal import of the initial mix and the pull in the same mix after the LinMB and compare the 2, around the 1K to 3K range tends to be a little higher than before hence I think this is lifting the vocals in the mix.

I do not have the full Wavelab - I have Wavelab Lite that came with my Carillon PC when I purchased it with Cubase SX and haven't really used it. I will see if the Cubase SX Multiband compressor has the FM Radio setting as I would guess it may be the same one, and I will give it a go.

I've just upgraded my Spirit Absolute Zero passive monitors for a pair of Mackie HR824 monitors.......so if I can't get my mix correct on them I think I should take up painting instead of music...

Thanks again

Antony

[Jonny Mumra]

Paavo, thanks for your response. My question was more to do the decision of using Wave LinEQ versus Harbal Lin EQ. ie. would you expect Harbal Linear EQ to produce equal results to Waves LinEQ, or would you expect it to be better or worse?

I assume it comes down to the algorithms coded in each tool, and maybe some people would prefer one over the other just out of personal preference - assuming there was a difference in sound.

The key reason behind my question is the approach I am considering taking with my mixing/pre-mastering activities. Currently I get a good solid mix and then export to 24bit wave file. I use Harbal to balance the EQ and then import that into a master project where I typically use a little LinMB and L2. However, what I find, is that using the Harbal EQ and LinMB can result in the balance and punchiness of the mix sounding good but the vocals may now be too prominent in the mix or not prominent enough - usually the former, and I find myself going back to the original mix, lowering the vocals and then going through the process again of Harbal and LinMB, etc. An alternative approach would be to use the master output in Cubase to have the LinEQ, LinMB and L2 in the original mix project, where I can use Harbal to tell me the frequency curve and I can make adjustments in the original mix project to the LinEQ, and then do the LinMB and if I find that the vocals are a little prominent, or whatever, I can lower them directly in the mix to get the desired level. I can then export mix to Harbal to use the loudiness match facility and set the L2 appropriately to match all other tracks I have done.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

Antony

Antony

Lets think about a few things for a second.

You stated that the vocals are too prominent at the mastering stage and that you normally have to go back and correct them in the mix.
Are the vocals extremely dynamic?
If so, you need to define the parameters using compression.
When you have finished mixing listen to the track from another room. If the vocals are too loud you will know immediately. Simply make a note of the vocal level and bring it all the way down. Either you or someone else should bring them up slowly while someone is listening from another room.

If you are absolutely sure about the vocals at this point.....export as a stereo track.

If at the mastering stage your vocals appear to be to become louder after the track is processed then the settings are incorrect somewhere.

Normally in some of my chains if using the Lin Eq I just use the preset (remove dc and low rumble) I am finished with it. I only use the Lin EQ lowband.

Now lets move on to the Waves LMB. (I actually prefer the multi compressor that comes standard with Wavelab)

1. Choose full reset
2. Choose adaptive opto mastering
3.Play the entire song.
4.Notice the numbers that appeared at the very bottom
5. Plug these numbers into the corresponding threshold boxes above in each column.
6. Toggle the button on the right so the gain is automatically made up, no matter the changes you make.
7. Play the song and start slowly bringing down the main threshold until the song starts to blend. (Stop)
8. If you are saying the vocals are too loud at this point pull down the corresponding "gain" button (usually the third from the left) until the vocals are immersed into the track.
9. Set the outceiling on your L2 to -0.1 and start pulling down your threshold. If there is no activity on the L2 meters you have gone too far.

You are done.

The reason I prefer the steinberg multicompressor that comes standard in Wavelab is because it makes the sound fat. It takes a little getting used too but it is ingenious. You can use the FM radio preset as a starting point and work from there. When I use it I set the outceiling on the L2 to -0.1 and the threshold to 0.0. I use the volume control on the multi compressor to get me where I need to be.

Normally, when I have corrected the spectral image in Har-Bal prior to importing into Wavelab. I rarely have a need to further EQ.
I just use the multicompressor to shape the sound and end up with happy clients daily

Cheers

Earle

Hi Earl i use Samplitude and wavelab for mastering and im wondering if you can use the wavelab mulitcmpressor in other DAW's

Thank you

[har-bal]

Paavo, thanks for your response. My question was more to do the decision of using Wave LinEQ versus Harbal Lin EQ. ie. would you expect Harbal Linear EQ to produce equal results to Waves LinEQ, or would you expect it to be better or worse?

I assume it comes down to the algorithms coded in each tool, and maybe some people would prefer one over the other just out of personal preference - assuming there was a difference in sound.

The key reason behind my question is the approach I am considering taking with my mixing/pre-mastering activities. Currently I get a good solid mix and then export to 24bit wave file. I use Harbal to balance the EQ and then import that into a master project where I typically use a little LinMB and L2. However, what I find, is that using the Harbal EQ and LinMB can result in the balance and punchiness of the mix sounding good but the vocals may now be too prominent in the mix or not prominent enough - usually the former, and I find myself going back to the original mix, lowering the vocals and then going through the process again of Harbal and LinMB, etc. An alternative approach would be to use the master output in Cubase to have the LinEQ, LinMB and L2 in the original mix project, where I can use Harbal to tell me the frequency curve and I can make adjustments in the original mix project to the LinEQ, and then do the LinMB and if I find that the vocals are a little prominent, or whatever, I can lower them directly in the mix to get the desired level. I can then export mix to Harbal to use the loudiness match facility and set the L2 appropriately to match all other tracks I have done.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

Antony

Antony

Lets think about a few things for a second.

You stated that the vocals are too prominent at the mastering stage and that you normally have to go back and correct them in the mix.
Are the vocals extremely dynamic?
If so, you need to define the parameters using compression.
When you have finished mixing listen to the track from another room. If the vocals are too loud you will know immediately. Simply make a note of the vocal level and bring it all the way down. Either you or someone else should bring them up slowly while someone is listening from another room.

If you are absolutely sure about the vocals at this point.....export as a stereo track.

If at the mastering stage your vocals appear to be to become louder after the track is processed then the settings are incorrect somewhere.

Normally in some of my chains if using the Lin Eq I just use the preset (remove dc and low rumble) I am finished with it. I only use the Lin EQ lowband.

Now lets move on to the Waves LMB. (I actually prefer the multi compressor that comes standard with Wavelab)

1. Choose full reset
2. Choose adaptive opto mastering
3.Play the entire song.
4.Notice the numbers that appeared at the very bottom
5. Plug these numbers into the corresponding threshold boxes above in each column.
6. Toggle the button on the right so the gain is automatically made up, no matter the changes you make.
7. Play the song and start slowly bringing down the main threshold until the song starts to blend. (Stop)
8. If you are saying the vocals are too loud at this point pull down the corresponding "gain" button (usually the third from the left) until the vocals are immersed into the track.
9. Set the outceiling on your L2 to -0.1 and start pulling down your threshold. If there is no activity on the L2 meters you have gone too far.

You are done.

The reason I prefer the steinberg multicompressor that comes standard in Wavelab is because it makes the sound fat. It takes a little getting used too but it is ingenious. You can use the FM radio preset as a starting point and work from there. When I use it I set the outceiling on the L2 to -0.1 and the threshold to 0.0. I use the volume control on the multi compressor to get me where I need to be.

Normally, when I have corrected the spectral image in Har-Bal prior to importing into Wavelab. I rarely have a need to further EQ.
I just use the multicompressor to shape the sound and end up with happy clients daily

Cheers

Earle

Hi Earl i use Samplitude and wavelab for mastering and im wondering if you can use the wavelab mulitcmpressor in other DAW's

Thank you

Jonny

That is a good question. Normally you can just place the .dll file for the corresponding plugin into a vst folder. I would check with the folks at samplitude support on that one. In any case it is the sane as the old Steinberg ME compressor that came with their mastering bundle.


Earle

[Jonny Mumra]

Thanks Earle