Hear it for yourself
http://www.pristineclassical.com/More/NaturalSound.html
Read on
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeW ... ASC065.php
Cheers
Earle
Below is more information from Mr Andrew Rose.
I've mentioned this before, a long time ago, on your message boards, but thought you might be interested to know how things are progressing, and about the distinct possibility of a mention on BBC Radio Three (the BBC's classical radio station) this weekend.
I've recently taken to using Har-Bal in a far more specific way to counteract the deficiencies in 1930's and 40's recording equipment, and have now begun a major series of Beethoven Symphonies using Har-Bal as one of the core techniques.
At the heart of this is the following - rather than using Har-Bal to attack general defects in the sound, I'm taking modern recordings (2006 LSO/Haitink in the case of the Beethoven) and matching quite closely the frequency response, at least as high as it goes on the 78s. The results are revelatory - as I write I'm working on a recording of the 9th Symphony for release later this month, made in 1935. The current CD reissue of this on Naxos sounds typically 'vintage', but what Har-Bal reveals is that the information is all there, and with an average tonal balance over an hour's music that can be compared with a modern recording of exactly the same piece it's possible to devise a precise EQ curve to correct tonal deficiencies to a degree previously impossible.
A simplified discussion of these techniques formed part of a 30-minute illustrated interview I recorded for the BBC late last year, to be broadcast on this Saturday's CD Review programme (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/cdreview ), which I hope will be of interest.
Since the interview was recorded I've used Har-Bal to achieve the previously impossible with a 1938 Toscanini recording of Beethoven's Fourth Symphony, the details of which are on our website here:
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeW ... ASC065.php
We offered this as a limited-time free Christmas present, generating more hits for this recording than any previous single recording on our site, with unanimous approval. I'd be glad to send you a copy if you're interested in hearing it. You'll see we have a link to your site on the page.
Meanwhile the website is due to feature in the next BBC Music Magazine, and won a special award for its online service from Classic Record Collector Magazine in their annual 2006 awards last month.
I will of course be happy to mention again the use of Har-Bal in the Beethoven series currently in preparation. I do believe that by Har-Balising vintage recordings closely to their modern exact equivalents, we are able to bring about something of a revolution in sound quality of these older recordings, for which I can only thank you.
If there's any way you think we might be able to work together to our mutual benefit, please let me know; in the meantime, I wish you a very happy New Year and all the best for 2007.
Regards
Andrew
www.pristineclassical.com
Har-Bal used to fix a flaw in Beethoven's fourth symphony
Har-Bal used to fix a flaw in Beethoven's fourth symphony
Last edited by har-bal on Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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jazzbass12
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PristineAudio
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FYI, I posted this to our own forum last night:
If you've heard the Toscanini Beethoven 4th we released just before Christmas you'll know I've been working on the tonal quality of these recordings using a program called Har-Bal. Although this is just one part of the overall restoration procedure, it has the potential to breathe a whole new life into these recordings, and come much, much closer to achieving the goal of reproducing what the conductor heard all those years ago.
In an ideal world we'd have a test recording from each session, where perfect white or pink noise was generated and recorded using the microphones in situ prior to the recording session beginning. This would allow for analysis of the tonal defects of a recording to be made and compensated for with great accuracy.
We don't of course have this, so I've devised what I think is a 'next best' solution. Because I feel this is working so well, I've decided that it really is worth revisiting some of those great historics once again and seeing if we can't really make some dramatic improvements over previous restorations - hence the Beethoven Symphony series I'm now working on. I'm tempted to say after the initial Toscanini that you ain't heard nothin' yet - for me this is somewhat uncharted territory, and different recordings respond in different ways.
My basic idea is that a modern recording - and for this series I'm taking the LSO/Haitink 2006 recordings as my reference - will even out over a complete performance of exactly the same piece as a vintage recording to provide a sonic profile of that piece, which can be applied quite closely to the older recording as the basis for equalisation.
The effects can be dramatic - though not perfect - as an old recording suddenly shakes off the cobwebs and sounds real, perhaps for the first time.
I make no apologies for this interventionism - there are other restorations of all of these recordings out there, some done by the best in the business, and there's little merit in simply doing the same again with fewer clicks.
But my experience so far suggests that there is much more in the grooves to be brought out, and that this is a viable way of very accurately dealing with the shortcomings of recording technology.
We can't fix everything of course - many US recordings in particular suffered the indignity of audio compression - squashing the dynamic range electronically. There's also the question of microphone placement and room acoustics which is hard to overcome, and of course the limited overall frequency response cannot be altered (believe me, I've tried!).
But I do believe that using Har-Bal in this way, to discover and correct the inadequate and uneven frequency response of early recording equipment, can being us much closer to the actual sound of the orchestra in these recordings. When then placed alongside other current restorations the difference is like chalk and cheese.
I like cheese - I hope you will too!
If you've heard the Toscanini Beethoven 4th we released just before Christmas you'll know I've been working on the tonal quality of these recordings using a program called Har-Bal. Although this is just one part of the overall restoration procedure, it has the potential to breathe a whole new life into these recordings, and come much, much closer to achieving the goal of reproducing what the conductor heard all those years ago.
In an ideal world we'd have a test recording from each session, where perfect white or pink noise was generated and recorded using the microphones in situ prior to the recording session beginning. This would allow for analysis of the tonal defects of a recording to be made and compensated for with great accuracy.
We don't of course have this, so I've devised what I think is a 'next best' solution. Because I feel this is working so well, I've decided that it really is worth revisiting some of those great historics once again and seeing if we can't really make some dramatic improvements over previous restorations - hence the Beethoven Symphony series I'm now working on. I'm tempted to say after the initial Toscanini that you ain't heard nothin' yet - for me this is somewhat uncharted territory, and different recordings respond in different ways.
My basic idea is that a modern recording - and for this series I'm taking the LSO/Haitink 2006 recordings as my reference - will even out over a complete performance of exactly the same piece as a vintage recording to provide a sonic profile of that piece, which can be applied quite closely to the older recording as the basis for equalisation.
The effects can be dramatic - though not perfect - as an old recording suddenly shakes off the cobwebs and sounds real, perhaps for the first time.
I make no apologies for this interventionism - there are other restorations of all of these recordings out there, some done by the best in the business, and there's little merit in simply doing the same again with fewer clicks.
But my experience so far suggests that there is much more in the grooves to be brought out, and that this is a viable way of very accurately dealing with the shortcomings of recording technology.
We can't fix everything of course - many US recordings in particular suffered the indignity of audio compression - squashing the dynamic range electronically. There's also the question of microphone placement and room acoustics which is hard to overcome, and of course the limited overall frequency response cannot be altered (believe me, I've tried!).
But I do believe that using Har-Bal in this way, to discover and correct the inadequate and uneven frequency response of early recording equipment, can being us much closer to the actual sound of the orchestra in these recordings. When then placed alongside other current restorations the difference is like chalk and cheese.
I like cheese - I hope you will too!
Andrew Rose
www.pristineaudio.com
www.pristineaudio.com
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Guest
Happy New Year!
Hope you guys will have a great 2007!
You deserve it.
greetz
Robert
You deserve it.
greetz
Robert
Congratulations Gents!!!!
I have to say that is really impressive. It could not have happened for a more dedicated group. Congratulations fellas. I really proud and happy for you. Earle if I can ever catch up with you we have to have a Guiness behind this one.
Dione Williams
President
Black Collar Entertainment.
EMPIRE STATE BUILDING
350 Fifth Avenue Suite 3304
New York, NY 10118
www.blackcollar.net
www.skillzofthetrade.com
Dione Williams
President
Black Collar Entertainment.
EMPIRE STATE BUILDING
350 Fifth Avenue Suite 3304
New York, NY 10118
www.blackcollar.net
www.skillzofthetrade.com
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PristineAudio
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You might be interested to see this, which includes four complete movements from four different vintage recordings remastered using Har-Bal to redefine the EQ:
http://www.pristineclassical.com/More/NaturalSound.html
http://www.pristineclassical.com/More/NaturalSound.html
Andrew Rose
www.pristineaudio.com
www.pristineaudio.com
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PristineAudio
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 6:15 am
- Location: Dordogne, France
- Contact:
The initial response to these has been quite remarkable:
"You're going to make me break my promise to myself (to not buy any more Toscanini discs). Those two are stunning, especially the 7th, which I found very involving (I forgot I was listening to an ancient recording)."
"I have been listening to this recording in various lp and cd incarnations for over 40 years and that streaming recording of the scherzo is amazingly improved - "stunning" as K.W. Lion says above. The instrumental detail and "hall ambience" are so dramatically improved as to seem like a different recording entirely. I too may have to break my promixe about purchasing yet one more Toscanini re-do.
Andrew, you've done something really special with this one."
"These truly are amazing. My fear was that by matching the EQ of the old recording to a modern recording that the orchestra would loose its unique character. However, at least based on these samples, that is not the case. The sound of the Stokowski-trained Philadelphians is still distinct from the pre-war Vienna Phil sound.
Very impressive Just wish I didnt have to wait until next Monday to download them."
"...In particular, the Toscanini LvB7 has the best sound I've ever heard coming from this recording. As a part-time restorer myself, I can't help but feel a bit envious of your output!"
"This performance was issued by RCA and was much collected in spite of its very low-fi sound, poor even for its time: airless, flat, shrill strings, faint woodwinds, blatty brass and limited frequency range. What Pristine Audio has done is rather hard to believe and even harder to describe. It is not just a reprocessing where rumble and noise and distortion is removed. There is air around all the instruments and there is some depth in the audio stage. The strings are sweet, not shrill. The woodwind are round. The brass are strong but they dont blare. But even all that doesnt describe it. The most exciting thing is that the frequency spectrum seems greatly enlarged. It is as if all the harmonics that couldnt be captured by the 1936 recording equipment were restored! The recording now sounds like a good mono 1954 recording."
And this is all before they're released. I'm now investigating 'retro-application' of this technique to restorations I've already done from 78s - the results thus far are highly promising.
Like many others - I'm just waiting for the next Har-Bal update to see what that will bring to this...
"You're going to make me break my promise to myself (to not buy any more Toscanini discs). Those two are stunning, especially the 7th, which I found very involving (I forgot I was listening to an ancient recording)."
"I have been listening to this recording in various lp and cd incarnations for over 40 years and that streaming recording of the scherzo is amazingly improved - "stunning" as K.W. Lion says above. The instrumental detail and "hall ambience" are so dramatically improved as to seem like a different recording entirely. I too may have to break my promixe about purchasing yet one more Toscanini re-do.
Andrew, you've done something really special with this one."
"These truly are amazing. My fear was that by matching the EQ of the old recording to a modern recording that the orchestra would loose its unique character. However, at least based on these samples, that is not the case. The sound of the Stokowski-trained Philadelphians is still distinct from the pre-war Vienna Phil sound.
Very impressive Just wish I didnt have to wait until next Monday to download them."
"...In particular, the Toscanini LvB7 has the best sound I've ever heard coming from this recording. As a part-time restorer myself, I can't help but feel a bit envious of your output!"
"This performance was issued by RCA and was much collected in spite of its very low-fi sound, poor even for its time: airless, flat, shrill strings, faint woodwinds, blatty brass and limited frequency range. What Pristine Audio has done is rather hard to believe and even harder to describe. It is not just a reprocessing where rumble and noise and distortion is removed. There is air around all the instruments and there is some depth in the audio stage. The strings are sweet, not shrill. The woodwind are round. The brass are strong but they dont blare. But even all that doesnt describe it. The most exciting thing is that the frequency spectrum seems greatly enlarged. It is as if all the harmonics that couldnt be captured by the 1936 recording equipment were restored! The recording now sounds like a good mono 1954 recording."
And this is all before they're released. I'm now investigating 'retro-application' of this technique to restorations I've already done from 78s - the results thus far are highly promising.
Like many others - I'm just waiting for the next Har-Bal update to see what that will bring to this...
Andrew Rose
www.pristineaudio.com
www.pristineaudio.com
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PristineAudio
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 6:15 am
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- Contact:
I know how you feel, Paavo - I'm surrounded by CDs I'll probably never get the time to investigate properly!HarBal wrote:Thanks for the plug Andrew. Hope your re-masterings do well! One of these days I'm sure to order one of those but I'm so split for time I've haven't bought a new CD in more than 6 months and even them I'm struggling to find the time to listen to them.
Paavo.
I hope the result of this will be a great boost to Har-Bal - you thoroughly deserve it!
Andrew Rose
www.pristineaudio.com
www.pristineaudio.com
Paavo,
If you're like me, you'll make the time to listen to these soon-to-be releases:
Beatles' 24-bit remasters.
If these are anything like 'some' of the sneak-peeks from Anthology, we're in for a real treat.
Since every tape/take was archived, the 'original' takes were utilized - instead of the 'reductions' that were required back in the 4-track days.
5.1, too.
* * *
Or, this could be yet another rumor about these releases.
If you're like me, you'll make the time to listen to these soon-to-be releases:
Beatles' 24-bit remasters.
If these are anything like 'some' of the sneak-peeks from Anthology, we're in for a real treat.
Since every tape/take was archived, the 'original' takes were utilized - instead of the 'reductions' that were required back in the 4-track days.
5.1, too.
* * *
Or, this could be yet another rumor about these releases.