When I make the adjustments to correct the eq I have started to get clipping in the recorded file. I would not expect this as I am seeing no indication of saturation in Har-bal.
If I have this happen to a file - should I just start over and this time drop the output gain slidder by a couple of db?
Suggestiosn to avoid and fix would be appreciated.
thanks,
Bax
why am I getting clipping?
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Paavo
Hi Bax,
What's happening for you is certainly possible though I wouldn't have expected it. The saturation indicator is pretty conservative with regard to the level that it warns you on (something like 95% full scale) so I would have expected it ot pick up on it and dsiplay the fact.
On the other hand, there is an interaction between the volume control and the clipping indicator threshold that is supposed to be compensated for but it is quite possible that it isn't quite correct. To check this out see if the saturation indicator lights when the volume control is at maximum (0dB).
Not that this is happening in your case, but other readers should be aware that the saturation meter only tells you if saturation is occuring in playback. If you are not playing the track it wont light and if the EQ is responsible for the saturation and the EQ button is out it also wont light. One user was expecting it to should that saturation occured without playback. I like that idea but it is rather difficult to implement effectively.
I guess if you have access to a good limiter then you can er on the side of caution and apply attenuation to all your tracks and provide a compensating boost when feeding through the limiter.
Actually, I've just realised that the saturation meter does not light if the saturation event is less than 0.1% of a processing frame which is 8 samples or less. So you are correct, it won't always display a satuation event. In hindsight I should have implemented it such that it lights on all saturation events. I'll fix that in the next revision.
Thanks,
Paavo.
What's happening for you is certainly possible though I wouldn't have expected it. The saturation indicator is pretty conservative with regard to the level that it warns you on (something like 95% full scale) so I would have expected it ot pick up on it and dsiplay the fact.
On the other hand, there is an interaction between the volume control and the clipping indicator threshold that is supposed to be compensated for but it is quite possible that it isn't quite correct. To check this out see if the saturation indicator lights when the volume control is at maximum (0dB).
Not that this is happening in your case, but other readers should be aware that the saturation meter only tells you if saturation is occuring in playback. If you are not playing the track it wont light and if the EQ is responsible for the saturation and the EQ button is out it also wont light. One user was expecting it to should that saturation occured without playback. I like that idea but it is rather difficult to implement effectively.
I guess if you have access to a good limiter then you can er on the side of caution and apply attenuation to all your tracks and provide a compensating boost when feeding through the limiter.
Actually, I've just realised that the saturation meter does not light if the saturation event is less than 0.1% of a processing frame which is 8 samples or less. So you are correct, it won't always display a satuation event. In hindsight I should have implemented it such that it lights on all saturation events. I'll fix that in the next revision.
Thanks,
Paavo.
Maybe a limiter for Har-bal?
Hi Paavo,
I think this is where a limiter that worked inside of the program would be helpful.
The clipping is pretty consistant if you consider a clip for one or two samples a problem - I'm not sure if "real people" can hear such short clips. I can't but I also know I have hearing loss. I'm using Sound Forge 7.0 to detect the clipping after I have run the song through Har-bal and these short clips can be pretty numerous. This clipping detection is a new feature and is probably showing more than I every really needed to know. However, I want the best recording I can make, so . . . .
I'm starting with songs that are mixed at about -.3 db. Usually I'm not making large changes, but apparently it is enough.
I must mention again - the songs sound SO much better after I use the Har-bal program! Love the program.
Bax
I think this is where a limiter that worked inside of the program would be helpful.
The clipping is pretty consistant if you consider a clip for one or two samples a problem - I'm not sure if "real people" can hear such short clips. I can't but I also know I have hearing loss. I'm using Sound Forge 7.0 to detect the clipping after I have run the song through Har-bal and these short clips can be pretty numerous. This clipping detection is a new feature and is probably showing more than I every really needed to know. However, I want the best recording I can make, so . . . .
I'm starting with songs that are mixed at about -.3 db. Usually I'm not making large changes, but apparently it is enough.
I must mention again - the songs sound SO much better after I use the Har-bal program! Love the program.
Bax
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SteveF
Clipping In Harbal
Hi,
Please do NOT add any limiting functions into HarBal, or at least if you do, please have an option for switching them off.
I use Har-Bal as a 'frequency' balancing and mastering tool. Due to the nature of filters used in Har-bal, clipping can occur if you try and tweak a file that is already close to saturation (0dBfs).
If you bare this in mind and make sure your source file is not already normalised and/or heavily maximised to 0dBfs, then you should have no problems.
In short, I usually record to a healthly level, mixdown to a healthly level, Harb-bal if required as part of the mastering process and then finally maximise using a high quality maximiser/multi-band compressor limiter.
I'd like to keep the maximising/final multi-band process seperate to Har-bal as I think this is an artform in itself and should be carefully controlled.
Thanks for the great product. I enjoy using it and I'm getting great results in the studio. I'm looking forward to the next release too....
Steve.
www.calder-recordings.co.uk
Please do NOT add any limiting functions into HarBal, or at least if you do, please have an option for switching them off.
I use Har-Bal as a 'frequency' balancing and mastering tool. Due to the nature of filters used in Har-bal, clipping can occur if you try and tweak a file that is already close to saturation (0dBfs).
If you bare this in mind and make sure your source file is not already normalised and/or heavily maximised to 0dBfs, then you should have no problems.
In short, I usually record to a healthly level, mixdown to a healthly level, Harb-bal if required as part of the mastering process and then finally maximise using a high quality maximiser/multi-band compressor limiter.
I'd like to keep the maximising/final multi-band process seperate to Har-bal as I think this is an artform in itself and should be carefully controlled.
Thanks for the great product. I enjoy using it and I'm getting great results in the studio. I'm looking forward to the next release too....
Steve.
www.calder-recordings.co.uk
Steve,
If and when a limiter feature is added it will be in the form of a plugin chain applied to the end of the processing. Whether you use it will be entirely up to you.
In any case, I'd agree entirely with your sentiments. But on the other hand, not everyone can afford the best limiting/compression processors.
Regards,
Paavo.
If and when a limiter feature is added it will be in the form of a plugin chain applied to the end of the processing. Whether you use it will be entirely up to you.
In any case, I'd agree entirely with your sentiments. But on the other hand, not everyone can afford the best limiting/compression processors.
Regards,
Paavo.
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tbrugh
I have an experience that I thought I'd share regarding clipping.
I had a songfile of an original tune and I wanted to experiment using Har-Bal to improve. The songfile was close to finalizing and actually had a MB comp and limiter on the mix bus. The songfile was still in it's 32bit float format.
To Har-Bal, I bypassed both the MB and limiter and performed a mixdown, remaining at 32bit.
When I started tweaking in Har-Bal, I started hearing a few clips throughout the song. The saturation meter was showing nothing. Actually, I then switched off eq and still heard the clipping.
I went back to the source file to investigate. I found 3 places in the song that was causing the problem. Although, when I played the song within my DAW program, no clipping was heard. When I playback in my DAW at 32bit, I can actually go over 0dB without hearing that annoying digital clip. I don't remember now if the 3 spots in the song were right at 0dB or actually slightly exceeded 0dB. I had taken MB comp and limiting off and had not checked closely enough if I had any errant peaks. It sounded fine on PB.
What I did was to lower my output fader somewhere around -.5dB and created a new mixdown file to work in Har-Bal. This corrected my problem and I was able to work within Har-Bal with no clipping.
So, I don't know if this helps others, but in my case I need to be mindful when working with 32bit float files. This did make me wonder, though, if I should be working with 24bit files in Har-Bal.
Steve
I had a songfile of an original tune and I wanted to experiment using Har-Bal to improve. The songfile was close to finalizing and actually had a MB comp and limiter on the mix bus. The songfile was still in it's 32bit float format.
To Har-Bal, I bypassed both the MB and limiter and performed a mixdown, remaining at 32bit.
When I started tweaking in Har-Bal, I started hearing a few clips throughout the song. The saturation meter was showing nothing. Actually, I then switched off eq and still heard the clipping.
I went back to the source file to investigate. I found 3 places in the song that was causing the problem. Although, when I played the song within my DAW program, no clipping was heard. When I playback in my DAW at 32bit, I can actually go over 0dB without hearing that annoying digital clip. I don't remember now if the 3 spots in the song were right at 0dB or actually slightly exceeded 0dB. I had taken MB comp and limiting off and had not checked closely enough if I had any errant peaks. It sounded fine on PB.
What I did was to lower my output fader somewhere around -.5dB and created a new mixdown file to work in Har-Bal. This corrected my problem and I was able to work within Har-Bal with no clipping.
So, I don't know if this helps others, but in my case I need to be mindful when working with 32bit float files. This did make me wonder, though, if I should be working with 24bit files in Har-Bal.
Steve
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Paavo
Steve,tbrugh wrote:I have an experience that I thought I'd share regarding clipping.
...
snip
...
I had taken MB comp and limiting off and had not checked closely enough if I had any errant peaks. It sounded fine on PB.
What I did was to lower my output fader somewhere around -.5dB and created a new mixdown file to work in Har-Bal. This corrected my problem and I was able to work within Har-Bal with no clipping.
So, I don't know if this helps others, but in my case I need to be mindful when working with 32bit float files. This did make me wonder, though, if I should be working with 24bit files in Har-Bal.
Steve
I have no idea why you could hear clipping on HarBal and not on your normal recording/editing software. It sounds unusual. I am aware that HarBal does not report clipping of less than 8 samples as clipping and will be addressing this with a fix i the next minor release.
May I suggest something? If you are doing EQ'ing with HarBal and then limiting post harbalizing you should leave yourself some headroom to avoid clipping post EQ. 0.5dB is almost nothing and you are highly likely to end up clipping the track when you HarBalize it. I'd suggest leaving a minimum of 6 dB headroom (ie. biggest peak -6dB from full scale) in the files you are going to harbalize.
Constant perceived volume (loudness compensation) does not mean the RMS level stays the same. Depending on where you make EQ changes you can easily get significant boosting in RMS level irrespective of whether you only do EQ cuts rather than boosts!
Regards,
Paavo.
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DjSolstice
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:09 pm